INFO-VAX Fri, 14 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 501 Contents: Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Itanium: determine object file main or sub Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: VMS License Plates volume shadowing question Re: volume shadowing question Re: volume shadowing question Re: volume shadowing question Re: volume shadowing question Re: Will Linux bloat itself out of existance ? Re: Will Linux bloat itself out of existance ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:28:28 -0700 From: Verne Subject: Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Message-ID: <1189708108.769613.240850@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 1, 6:02 pm, urbancamo wrote: > I put the PSU back together as is and I got the scope on the '800 this > evening. > > Findings: > > 1. The 5V line is running at 5.15V > 2. The 3.45V line is running at 3.45V > 3. The ripple on both 5V and 3.45V lines is approx. 5mv at about 30 > KHz > > I've attached the oscilloscope and meter images (nice to have a PC > based scope!) > > Observations: > > Both 5V and 3.45V lines appear to be pretty well DC regulated. > I wouldn't have thought that 5mv of a.c. ripple would cause any > serious problems. > I did a finger test on the 3.45v regulator components and couldn't > find anything 'hot' - the large heatsink to which the regulators is > attached gets slightly warm > I did a finger test on the CPU heatsink and the surrounding large > PLCCs and these get hot - almost too hot to touch. > > Conclusions: > > Maybe the fans are worn and not pulling the air through the box quick > enough. As I mentioned, they spin up quite high and then settle down > to a low tick over. > > Maybe the fan regulation isn't working correctly - I've not noticed > the fans speed up once the box has been on for a while. I'm not sure > where I would look for a temperature sensor. I can ask on the groups > and see if anyone knows, but it'll probably be up to me to find out. > One obvious place would be under the main CPU - do you think this > would be integrated into the main board layout and then come out to > one of the PSU connectors. > > I can measure the voltage on the fan circuit and quite possibly trace > the connection back to the PSU and see if I can work out how it is > regulated. It might be regulated on power load instead? Temperature > would seem more sensible however. > > I noticed that with the lid off the box it did seem to be quite stable > - I didn't really have long enough to come to any firm conclusions. I > guess running it with a desk fan pointing at the main circuit board > for a while might give an idea. > > What do you recon? The 5V line is a little high but I wouldn't have > thought that in itself would cause a problem. The PSU is rated at 750W > so it may be that fully loaded the 5V line would dip to 5V from 5.15V. > > Cheers for the help, > > Mark. In regards to the soft failures WRT missing keyboard/mouse, I found this old note in my personal archives: > >From: "Thomas G. Kreutz" >Subject: SUMMARY: Auto_start fails without a mouse! >Date: 1998/05/26 >Message-ID: <896221032.8538@news.Colorado.EDU>#1/1 >Distribution: cu >Approved: news@news.colorado.edu >Sender: daemon@lace.colorado.edu >Delivered-To: alpha-osf-managers@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov >Followup-To: poster >X-Note1: message-id generated by recnews >X-Note2: mail msgid was <9805241901.AA00838@flash.Princeton.EDU> >Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder >Newsgroups: cu.alpha.managers > >SUMMARY: > > If you remove the mouse and keyboard from a DEC 3000, it will not boot up >automatically after losing power unless the console variable SERVER is set to >ON (i.e. >>> set server on). When SERVER=OFF, the machine expects to have >both a mouse and keyboard upon power-up; without either, it displays a fault >condition and waits patiently for you to boot the system manually. > > As well documented in the manuals, you must also have set the AUTO_START >variable to either BOOT or RESTART. In addition, this assumes that you are >working on an Ralternate consoleS, with the tiny RS3S switch on the back set >in the down position. > > It is also possible to fake out the system by wiring a mouse/keyboard >loopback connector: > > 1 8 > o o-o o o o-o o > > o o o o o o o > 9 15 > >by connecting pins 2 and 3 as well as 6 and 7 of a male DB15 >connector. (One person thought it was perhaps 7+8 rather than 6+7). > >Many, many thanks to all those who responded so quickly: > > We have several AXP 3000-800s boxes at remote sites, and found this SET SERVER ON SRM console command very very helpful :-) Verne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:19:36 -0700 From: "David P. Murphy" Subject: despair Message-ID: <1189721976.064445.311760@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: $ ON ERROR THEN CONTINUE $ ALLOCATE 'tape_drive' $ INIT 'tape_drive' 'label' $ BACKUP/IMAGE/REWIND/'quals' - 'disk' - 'tape_drive'DAILY.BCK/SAVE I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. ok dpm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:29:27 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <07091317292759_20200296@antinode.org> From: "David P. Murphy" > Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: > [...] > I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. Some people see problems, others see opportunities. You probably just lack motivation. For appropriate help, visit "http://despair.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:48:22 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: On 09/13/07 17:19, David P. Murphy wrote: > Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: > > $ ON ERROR THEN CONTINUE > $ ALLOCATE 'tape_drive' > $ INIT 'tape_drive' 'label' > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/REWIND/'quals' - > 'disk' - > 'tape_drive'DAILY.BCK/SAVE > > I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. Looks like a perfectly efficient way of making sure the backup happens... -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:28:30 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: In article <07091317292759_20200296@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > > >From: "David P. Murphy" > >> Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: >> [...] >> I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. > > Some people see problems, others see opportunities. You probably >just lack motivation. For appropriate help, visit "http://despair.com". What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:56:47 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: Hi Brian, > What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his > cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg Ah yes the ol' [HTTP 404] Let's win one for The Gipper :-) Cheers Richard Maher wrote in message news:yIjGi.208$Lc7.86@newsfe12.lga... > In article <07091317292759_20200296@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > > > > > >From: "David P. Murphy" > > > >> Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: > >> [...] > >> I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. > > > > Some people see problems, others see opportunities. You probably > >just lack motivation. For appropriate help, visit "http://despair.com". > > > What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his > cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:07:45 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > >In article <07091317292759_20200296@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: >> >> >>From: "David P. Murphy" >> >>> Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: >>> [...] >>> I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. >> >> Some people see problems, others see opportunities. You probably >>just lack motivation. For appropriate help, visit "http://despair.com". > > >What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his >cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg http://tmesis.com/motivator.jpg -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:07:18 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: In article , "Richard Maher" writes: > > >Hi Brian, > >> What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his >> cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg > >Ah yes the ol' [HTTP 404] Let's win one for The Gipper :-) Damn... typos today... try http://tmesis.com/motivator.jpg -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:14:52 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <8691c$46e9d27f$cef8887a$14726@TEKSAVVY.COM> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > Damn... typos today... try http://tmesis.com/motivator.jpg Do you realise that HP may start to display this poster in all its offices as part of its official policy on motivation ? ? Remember that they got rid of its original high quality business (now Agilent) so they could focus on being mediocre ( aka: excel at Windows) so to them, that poster is an inspiration ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:16:29 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <3ccd3$46e9d2de$cef8887a$14726@TEKSAVVY.COM> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > http://tmesis.com/motivator.jpg Wouldn't $RENAME motivator.jpg motivation.jpg have done the trick without having you to post a correction twice ? Wouldn't $RENAME motivator.jpg motivation.jpg have done the trick without having you to post a correction twice ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:22:11 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <1189729331.151195.151830@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 13, 6:19 pm, "David P. Murphy" wrote: > Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: > > $ ON ERROR THEN CONTINUE > $ ALLOCATE 'tape_drive' > $ INIT 'tape_drive' 'label' > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/REWIND/'quals' - > 'disk' - > 'tape_drive'DAILY.BCK/SAVE wtf !? ( Worse Than Failure :^) Thanks David. not the same, but also about backups and mostly working, specifically while testing, todays entry on the wtf website: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/CSI-Server-Room.aspx Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:47:58 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <46E9DA3E.50406@comcast.net> David P. Murphy wrote: > Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: > > $ ON ERROR THEN CONTINUE > $ ALLOCATE 'tape_drive' > $ INIT 'tape_drive' 'label' > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/REWIND/'quals' - > 'disk' - > 'tape_drive'DAILY.BCK/SAVE > > I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. > It does seem a little simplistic!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:49:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <46E9DAAA.4010908@comcast.net> VAXman- wrote: > In article <07091317292759_20200296@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > >> >>From: "David P. Murphy" >> >>>Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: >>>[...] >>>I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. >> >> Some people see problems, others see opportunities. You probably >>just lack motivation. For appropriate help, visit "http://despair.com". > > > > What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his > cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg > I just tried to view that page and got: "-ERROR-(404): i/o error Requested method: GET Requested URL: /motivation.jpg HTTP protocol: HTTP/1.1 -------- additional request headers -------- Host: tmesis.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 (NSCD7.01) Accept: text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,video/x-mng,image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,text/css,*/*;q=0.1 Accept-Language: en-us, en;q=0.50 Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate, compress;q=0.9 Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1, utf-8;q=0.66, *;q=0.66 Keep-Alive: 300 Connection: keep-alive" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:51:23 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <46E9DB0B.1030803@comcast.net> VAXman- wrote: > In article , "Richard Maher" writes: > >> >>Hi Brian, >> >> >>>What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his >>>cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg >> >>Ah yes the ol' [HTTP 404] Let's win one for The Gipper :-) > > > > Damn... typos today... try http://tmesis.com/motivator.jpg > I LIKE IT!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:55:01 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: On 09/13/07 19:07, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "Richard Maher" writes: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >>> What my good friend David needs is a motivational poster to hang on his >>> cubicle wall. I'd suggest this one: http://tmesis.com/motivation.jpg >> Ah yes the ol' [HTTP 404] Let's win one for The Gipper :-) > > > Damn... typos today... try http://tmesis.com/motivator.jpg I'm still getting -ERROR-(404): i/o error Requested method: GET Requested URL: /motivator.jpg HTTP protocol: HTTP/1.1 -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:26:12 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <1189743972.000693.263050@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 13, 6:19 pm, "David P. Murphy" wrote: > Real code at the beginning of the "daily backup" batch job: > > $ ON ERROR THEN CONTINUE > $ ALLOCATE 'tape_drive' > $ INIT 'tape_drive' 'label' > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/REWIND/'quals' - > 'disk' - > 'tape_drive'DAILY.BCK/SAVE > > I have lost what little faith in humanity remained in me. > > ok > dpm My questions: Is the same tape in the drive every day? Are there any more BACKUP commands in the rest of the procedure? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:26:15 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/13/07 12:13, JF Mezei wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> ...and leviticus 21:18-20 is rather prejudiced toward the affirmed and >> physically handicapped. "for whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, >> he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat >> nose, or any thing superfluous, ... or a man that is brokenfooted, or >> brokenhanded, ... or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in >> his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; > > > Darwin. Make sure those with deffective genes don't reproduce. Make sure > those with communicable diseases dont have sex to pass the disease to > others. You end up with a superior race. But those "defective" people were made in His image, no? BTW, "stones broken"????? NASB says "deformed limb". -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 2007 18:33:44 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5kte48F5f8auU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 09/13/07 12:13, JF Mezei wrote: >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> ...and leviticus 21:18-20 is rather prejudiced toward the affirmed and >>> physically handicapped. "for whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, >>> he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat >>> nose, or any thing superfluous, ... or a man that is brokenfooted, or >>> brokenhanded, ... or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in >>> his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; >> >> >> Darwin. Make sure those with deffective genes don't reproduce. Make sure >> those with communicable diseases dont have sex to pass the disease to >> others. You end up with a superior race. > > But those "defective" people were made in His image, no? Genetic drift. > > BTW, "stones broken"????? NASB says "deformed limb". I find few translations in the past 60-100 yeaqrs that I actually trust. And yes, in some cases I can read and understand the originals and earlier translations into various and sundry languages. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:23:49 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <9572c$46e99c59$cef8887a$5390@TEKSAVVY.COM> Ron Johnson wrote: > But those "defective" people were made in His image, no? Human race may have been made in his image, but it doesn't mean that each individual will be perfect. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:30:42 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189715442.681327.202190@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 13, 1:26 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/13/07 12:13, JF Mezei wrote: > > > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> ...and leviticus 21:18-20 is rather prejudiced toward the affirmed and > >> physically handicapped. "for whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, > >> he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat > >> nose, or any thing superfluous, ... or a man that is brokenfooted, or > >> brokenhanded, ... or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in > >> his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; > > > Darwin. Make sure those with deffective genes don't reproduce. Make sure > > those with communicable diseases dont have sex to pass the disease to > > others. You end up with a superior race. > > But those "defective" people were made in His image, no? > God only made Adam and Eve in his own image. Adam and Eve "created" Cain and Abel, and there were also other people around then apparently doing some "begating" of their own. As the story goes: Cain murdered Abel out of jealousy because God liked Abel's offering of sheep better than Cain's offering of crops. God banished Cain from Eden. Cain took a wife (?), they had a son, Enoch. He took a wife (?) and they had a son who took a wife and "begat" more children and so on. So, according to Genesis, Adam and Eve were *not* the first and only humans on earth; they were just the first who God names because he created them. If you follow it from there, it gets even weirder. When Adam was 130 yrs old he and Eve had another son, Seth, who took a wife (?) and they had sons and daughters who married people from someplace and they all kept on "begating." People back then seem to have lived very long lives -- hundreds of years -- and been fertile at least past 100 years. So, we must presume (if the stories are true) that the story-tellers of old didn't know or didn't memorize all of the facts and the "begats," but only the ones relevant to the stories. We can also presume that the memorized lineage and stories experienced replication errors as they passed down through the generations, just as our genes have. The bible doesn't tell us anything about the people who lived "east of Eden" but they were apparently genetically compatible. We must be descended from them as much as from Adam and Eve, or maybe more so, since there were apparently more than just two of them, and there seemed to be a lot of interaction with Adam's and Eve's line. Where the others came and who they were has been pondered for centuries. Maybe they were his "practice" people, or maybe one of the other gods (who we should not have before Him) made them. It's just "one of God's mysteries" that we might be allowed to someday understand if we believe and don't question, I guess. At least that's what most of the "holy men" I've asked have told me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:38:36 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: > When Adam was 130 yrs old he and Eve had another son, Seth, who took a > wife (?) and they had sons and daughters who married people from > someplace and they all kept on "begating." > > People back then seem to have lived very long lives Shorter calendar would result in say 30 years in our calendar being counted as 130 years in Adam&Eve's calendar :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:01:03 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189717263.176620.301210@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 13, 3:38 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > When Adam was 130 yrs old he and Eve had another son, Seth, who took a > > wife (?) and they had sons and daughters who married people from > > someplace and they all kept on "begating." > > > People back then seem to have lived very long lives > > Shorter calendar would result in say 30 years in our calendar being > counted as 130 years in Adam&Eve's calendar :-) I suppose the earth could have revolved faster around the sun then, but "years" meant "years" even then -- though they just saw repeating cycles of the seasons and the sun's position in the sky. The Bible does say that man lived longer then and tells the story of why we no longer do (which you can look up if you're curious.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:02:23 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/13/07 13:33, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: >> On 09/13/07 12:13, JF Mezei wrote: >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> ...and leviticus 21:18-20 is rather prejudiced toward the affirmed and >>>> physically handicapped. "for whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, >>>> he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat >>>> nose, or any thing superfluous, ... or a man that is brokenfooted, or >>>> brokenhanded, ... or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in >>>> his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; >>> >>> Darwin. Make sure those with deffective genes don't reproduce. Make sure >>> those with communicable diseases dont have sex to pass the disease to >>> others. You end up with a superior race. >> But those "defective" people were made in His image, no? > > Genetic drift. > >> BTW, "stones broken"????? NASB says "deformed limb". > > I find few translations in the past 60-100 yeaqrs that I actually trust. > And yes, in some cases I can read and understand the originals and earlier > translations into various and sundry languages. Soooo.... "stones broken" is somehow better than "deformed limb"? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:33:36 -0000 From: dreherthomi Subject: Re: Itanium: determine object file main or sub Message-ID: <1189730016.390172.93890@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Thank You for your reply, John, that was what I needed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:47:41 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: <1189730861.740242.36890@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 6:25 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > HI. > Currently running VMS system with : > > DS20/500, 2 CPU > VMS 7.3-2 > TCPIP 5.4 ECO 2 > OSU web server 3.6 and 3.8 (in three running copies) > > Now I've been asked to evaluate "WEB Services" > as a new "interface" to this system. I have checked > the WSIT and SOAP pages at HP. As far as I can see, > there are a few show stoppers as the system is > configured today. I need (at least one) ODS-5 disk > and also a current JAVA install for WSIT. But, according > to the development manual for WSIT, there are (at least one) > some tools (OBJ2IDL.EXE) that only runs on VMS I64. > That's a major problem, of course. > > Anyway, are there anyone who actualy have tried/used > these tools? And any other thought about this WEB Services > "thing" are also welcome. > > I'm currenly using the simple DCL scripting of the OSU > server (which works just OK) to produce dynamic page > contents. The WEB services is ment to be a data-transfer > interface, sort of not-having-to-use-FTP. I guess that one > also cat get a more "on-line" interface where apps can > exchange status info over the same connection. Now, not > realy sure what I'm talking about here... :-) :-) > > Jan-Erik. Jan, At the Technical Update Day's one of the speakers will be discussing this (Meg) and she is aware of your interest. So if she does not cover what you need just make sure you come up and talk to her. See you soon. Sue ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:39:23 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <1189719563.319938.132860@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 4:33 pm, Sue wrote: > On Aug 30, 11:52 am, Sue wrote: > > > Dear Newsgroup, > > > If you remember we have done VMS License plates over the years. The > > last one we did had "When downtime is NOT an option" > > > I was thinking about doing them again for our 30th. Let me know what > > you think. > > > Warm Regards, > > Sue > > Did we already do Nothing Stops it I remember last year and Cool and > unhackable from The Netherlands. I am not in the office so I can not > look at them. > > Sue VMS: Data protection like a She-wolf with cubs VMS: Like a kodiak bear protecting your data VMS: would you rather trust a prawn or a shark to guard your data? VMS - because your data is the One Ring and the Dark Hacker Sauron is out to get it VMS: Because Osama hates it! VMS - you know you oughta! If you had used VMS the Russian Mafia wouldn't have your credit card... VMS - because Chinese communists already control your windows PC VMS - a Mighty Fortress is our OS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:16:21 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: volume shadowing question Message-ID: <13eivjnd1q5bj8a@corp.supernews.com> Hello We are installing an EVA4000 in replacement of an MSA1000. I was wondering if I could use HBVS to switch my data onto the new storage, online. That is: create a new drive on the EVA4000, mount it as a shadow member of the existing one on MSA1000. When the merge is complete, dismount the member that's on the MSA1000. A possible technical problem: The VMScluster is comprised of 2 Alphaservers and one IA64 server. When I mount /cluster the shadow member, will all nodes see it properly (different architecture should not be a problem on VMS) ? And is there something obvious that I do not see ? Is this a workable plan ? I remember 5-6 years ago, HBVS would not mount members of different sizes so that will certainly be a problem if it's still the case. And I hope HP can lend me HBVS licenses for a week or two... I may still have some for Alpha but certainly not for IA64. Just thinking, looking for feedback Thanks -- Syltrem http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en français) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:01:43 -0700 From: Ryan Moore Subject: Re: volume shadowing question Message-ID: Given the way your question is worded, I'll assume you aren't already using shadowsets. If that's the case, you will at least have to dismount the current disk to re-mount it as a one-member shadowset to get the process started. But then, yes, you should be able to "transfer" the data this way. Then after the data is transferred you'd have to dismount the shadowset and remount the new disk. It'll complain though if you try to re-mount the device as a non-shadowset. Considering you will have to dismount the original disk before the transfer and dismount the target disk after the transfer, I don't see the advantage of this "shadow" tranfer method. You might as well, make the storage you want on the EVA, then BACKUP the content from one disk to another. You're going to have "downtime" on that disk either way. You may have licenses for shadowing on the IA64 already. If you have the MCOE (Mission Critical Operating Environment) license, which it seems you do if you have clustering, then I believe that also covers volume shadowing. You're good to go there. On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Syltrem wrote: > Hello > > We are installing an EVA4000 in replacement of an MSA1000. > > I was wondering if I could use HBVS to switch my data onto the new storage, > online. > > That is: create a new drive on the EVA4000, mount it as a shadow member of > the existing one on MSA1000. > When the merge is complete, dismount the member that's on the MSA1000. > > A possible technical problem: > The VMScluster is comprised of 2 Alphaservers and one IA64 server. When I > mount /cluster the shadow member, will all nodes see it properly (different > architecture should not be a problem on VMS) ? > > And is there something obvious that I do not see ? Is this a workable plan ? > I remember 5-6 years ago, HBVS would not mount members of different sizes so > that will certainly be a problem if it's still the case. > > And I hope HP can lend me HBVS licenses for a week or two... I may still > have some for Alpha but certainly not for IA64. > > Just thinking, looking for feedback ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:28:30 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Re: volume shadowing question Message-ID: <13ej7bfg1arv1ff@corp.supernews.com> "Ryan Moore" wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0709131254450.10305@jaipur.local... > Given the way your question is worded, I'll assume you aren't already > using shadowsets. If that's the case, you will at least have to dismount > the current disk to re-mount it as a one-member shadowset to get the > process started. > > But then, yes, you should be able to "transfer" the data this way. Then > after the data is transferred you'd have to dismount the shadowset and > remount the new disk. It'll complain though if you try to re-mount the > device as a non-shadowset. > > Considering you will have to dismount the original disk before the > transfer and dismount the target disk after the transfer, I don't see the > advantage of this "shadow" tranfer method. You might as well, make the > storage you want on the EVA, then BACKUP the content from one disk to > another. > You're going to have "downtime" on that disk either way. > > You may have licenses for shadowing on the IA64 already. If you have the > MCOE (Mission Critical Operating Environment) license, which it seems you > do if you have clustering, then I believe that also covers volume > shadowing. You're good to go there. > > Hi It`s been some time since I used shadowing and I forgot that. Yes of course I need to mount DSAxx: /shadow=(...) so I need to dismount first. You answered my question fully, thank you ! Back to plan A... Thanks ! Syltrem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:34:17 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: volume shadowing question Message-ID: Syltrem wrote: > The VMScluster is comprised of 2 Alphaservers and one IA64 server. When I > mount /cluster the shadow member, will all nodes see it properly (different > architecture should not be a problem on VMS) ? Correct. > there something obvious that I do not see ? Is this a workable plan ? > I remember 5-6 years ago, HBVS would not mount members of different sizes so > that will certainly be a problem if it's still the case. If it works, you need to also ask the question of whether your larger disks on the new system will be usable. Say you have 1 gig drives on the old one and you introduce a 10 gig drive into the shadowset. After you've remove the older 1 gig drives, your shadowset will still only have a 1 gig capacity because that is how the drive was initialised when it was included into the original shadowset. Not sure if I read it or dreamt it, but doesn't VMS now have something like dynamic volume resizing capability ? If so, then you might be able to convert your 1 gig shadowset into a 10gig shadowset once all the 1 gig drives have been removed. If the disks are not currently shadowed, you will need to dismount/mount to create it, and before your temporary licences expire, you'll need to dismount the shadowset and remount your disks normally. You'll have to stop/restart your applications though because the device name will have changed at each dismounT/mount even if the logical name hasn't changed (think opened files). If you were already on shadowsets, then your plan would work perfectly and applications wouldn't see a difference since their drive (DSAxxx) would never be dismounted. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:12:16 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: volume shadowing question Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Syltrem wrote: > >> The VMScluster is comprised of 2 Alphaservers and one IA64 server. >> When I mount /cluster the shadow member, will all nodes see it >> properly (different architecture should not be a problem on VMS) ? > > > Correct. > >> there something obvious that I do not see ? Is this a workable plan ? >> I remember 5-6 years ago, HBVS would not mount members of different >> sizes so that will certainly be a problem if it's still the case. > > > If it works, you need to also ask the question of whether your larger > disks on the new system will be usable. Say you have 1 gig drives on the > old one and you introduce a 10 gig drive into the shadowset. After > you've remove the older 1 gig drives, your shadowset will still only > have a 1 gig capacity because that is how the drive was initialised when > it was included into the original shadowset. > > Not sure if I read it or dreamt it, but doesn't VMS now have something > like dynamic volume resizing capability ? If so, then you might be able > to convert your 1 gig shadowset into a 10gig shadowset once all the 1 > gig drives have been removed. > $ set volume/size ... However, if the disk was not initialized with /limit qualifier, you'll first need to $ set volume/limit on it (which expands the [000000]bitmap.sys file so there's room to map the new space.) Otherwise, the maximum size available to set volume/size is the size of the bitmap (one cluster per bit), which is usually not substantially larger than it already was. Unfortunately, while $ set volume/size can be done online, without shutting down applications, closing files or anything else, $ set volume/limit requires exclusive access to the disk (make sure there's no current access to the disk, dismount, mount privately, set the volume size limit, dismount again, mount/system.) > If the disks are not currently shadowed, you will need to dismount/mount > to create it, and before your temporary licences expire, you'll need to > dismount the shadowset and remount your disks normally. > > You'll have to stop/restart your applications though because the device > name will have changed at each dismounT/mount even if the logical name > hasn't changed (think opened files). Also, you'll probably need to enable shadowing with the appropriate sysgen parameters and reboot before being able to mount the single-disk shadowsets, and remember to reverse this when done. > > If you were already on shadowsets, then your plan would work perfectly > and applications wouldn't see a difference since their drive (DSAxxx) > would never be dismounted. Works like a charm. For this reason, when configuring a system that has a shadowing license, I usually configure *all* the disks as shadow sets, even when they aren't shadowed. It lets me expand the volumes by adding a bigger disk and then dropping the old, smaller one, and it lets me replace a suspect disk by adding a replacement disk to the shadow set and then dropping the failing disk, and it lets me do hot backups (we're professionals, don't try this at home! - Jamie and Adam) by adding a 2nd disk, waiting for the shadow copy to complete, quiesce the system, drop the 2nd disk, resume system activity while backing the 2nd disk to tape. (Your system/application has to have a good "quiescing" feature built into it for this to be reliable, but it reduces the offline time for a backup to a few seconds.) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:02:39 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Will Linux bloat itself out of existance ? Message-ID: <1189728159.357597.315220@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Sep 13, 5:59 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/12/07 22:10, Neil Rieck wrote: > [...snip...] > > > p.s. on the flip side, anyone who has tried to make sense of either > > CVS or SVN knows that drug abuse is still rampant over there > > Which is why Linus never used cvs for the kernel. > I just received this note from someone who might wish to remain anonymous... ##### The kernel uses git, and Linus has been quite clear on his distaste for various of the mainstream source management tools including cvs and svn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 (70 min video of Linus @ Google) Yes, cvs and svn are exceedingly weird and often unwieldy (svn is somewhat better than cvs), but effective source control is a prerequisite for large-scale distributed development. And all discussions of pharmaceutical abuse aside, a distributed tool is a prerequisite and cvs and svn do work. There are a number of cases where cvs or svn or otherwise are integrated into the source development environments; into the IDEs. This greatly eases the difficulties for developers new to the particular tools. This area is also an installed-base issue. Once you commit to using a particular source control tool (pun intended), you're going to have some effort to migrate out and into another. The same difficulty holds for committing to an operating system, to a large-scale application environment such as source control, or otherwise. HP doesn't use distributed remote access for the OpenVMS source pool; it's all home-grown access with VDE. VDE is a very old user interface and very old design by current standards. (cvs and svn are also relatively old environments, though far newer than VDE.) This use of VDE assuming there have not been radical changes in the operations of OpenVMS over last year; VDE has been in use in OpenVMS Engineering for a very long time, and is accordingly rather entrenched. http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/freewarev40/vde/doc/vde_guide.html http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/freewarev70/vde/ If you dig around, you should be able to find some ancient presentations I've done on VDE. But if you're running a distributed environment, svn, cvs or git can and do work. There are ports of at least svn and cvs clients available for OpenVMS, though I don't know if there's a git port around. ##### Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:11:45 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Will Linux bloat itself out of existance ? Message-ID: <5lkGi.209$tR7.133@newsfe12.lga> In article <1189728159.357597.315220@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck writes: > > >On Sep 13, 5:59 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 09/12/07 22:10, Neil Rieck wrote: >> >[...snip...] >> >> > p.s. on the flip side, anyone who has tried to make sense of either >> > CVS or SVN knows that drug abuse is still rampant over there >> >> Which is why Linus never used cvs for the kernel. >> > >I just received this note from someone who might wish to remain >anonymous... > > ##### > >The kernel uses git, and Linus has been quite clear on his distaste >for various of the mainstream source management tools including cvs >and svn. > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 (70 min video of Linus @ >Google) > >Yes, cvs and svn are exceedingly weird and often unwieldy (svn is >somewhat better than cvs), but effective source control is a >prerequisite for large-scale distributed development. And all >discussions of pharmaceutical abuse aside, a distributed tool is a >prerequisite and cvs and svn do work. I had to use cvs when I was maintaining the OpenVMS component of a multi- platform product. Yuck!! Problems it caused/introduced could have been better avoided without using cvs at all. Good riddens that project! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.501 ************************