INFO-VAX Fri, 28 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 530 Contents: Re: Article of Interest. RE: Article of Interest. Re: Article of Interest. Re: Article of Interest. Re: Article of Interest. Re: Guidance with OpenVMS IA64 8.3 with Java 1.5 Problems LDAP server under OpenVMS Re: LDAP server under OpenVMS lexical for terminal attributes? Re: lexical for terminal attributes? Re: lexical for terminal attributes? OpenVPN for OpenVMS Re: Problem running sysman Re: Soymail not working with WASD Re: Soymail not working with WASD Re: Soymail not working with WASD Re: Soymail not working with WASD The Future of Computing, According to Intel Re: The Future of Computing, According to Intel Re: Time to PAK it in? Re: Time to PAK it in? Re: Time to PAK it in? Re: username/nocom vs. sylogin Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior Wireless mail and connectivity with VMS server ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:04:40 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Article of Interest. Message-ID: In article <%TXKi.52$JF5.10@newsfe19.lga>, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/27/07 15:51, Bob Koehler wrote: > > In article , VAXman- > > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/09/microsoft-reveals-windows-vista-sp1-will > >> -install-xp.html > >> > > > > LOL > > > > MS-DOS 1.0 would be better. No networking support for those damn > > virii to come in through. > > Sneakernet. > > That's how the first PC/Mac viruses were spread. > > > 8-( > > Still faster than trying to reconfigure a dialup Windows 98 system to one on a LAN. Hell, even second class post was faster than that! -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:20:01 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Article of Interest. Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: September 28, 2007 12:41 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Article of Interest. > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > In 1995, there were 5-20 security patches per month with Windows. > > Help me understand what is different today. > > Because you live in a VMS universe where marketing and image are not > permitted, you may not understand this. > > Why did people buy XP and why will they buy Vista ? Because of promises > of the new product being safer, having better firewall, better virus > protection, fewer bugs, fewer security problems. > > The fact that in reality, there may not be any difference is totally > irrelevant. > Snip.. Forget the marketing for a second. You stated that you actually thought the Windows security environment was g= etting better. Here is your statement: > And in fairness to Microsoft, I think that the security of windows is > slowly being improved from its absolutely dismal state. No one disagrees that Windows marketing is good, but given the exponential = increase in the level of sophistication of the bad guys, do you really feel from a tech= nical level that the environment has improved since 1995? Btw, the move to Vista is happening much, much slower than originally expec= ted. Even trad HW vendors are now offering Windows XP OS offerings in parallel w= ith Vista - all because their Customers have demanded it. That is huge when you conside= r that in the past, these vendors had no choice but to only offer the latest Windows vers= ions only on new HW. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:49:19 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Article of Interest. Message-ID: On 09/27/07 23:41, JF Mezei wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: >> In 1995, there were 5-20 security patches per month with Windows. >> Help me understand what is different today. > > Because you live in a VMS universe where marketing and image are not > permitted, you may not understand this. > > Why did people buy XP and why will they buy Vista ? Because of promises > of the new product being safer, having better firewall, better virus > protection, fewer bugs, fewer security problems. No. They bought it because: (a) that's what came pre-installed on their PCs, and (b) MSFT stopped selling Win2K. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:43:39 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Article of Interest. Message-ID: <46FD050B.2010705@comcast.net> Main, Kerry wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >>Sent: September 27, 2007 1:14 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>Subject: Re: Article of Interest. >> > > > snip.. > > >>And in fairness to Microsoft, I think that the security of windows is >>slowly being improved from its absolutely dismal state. And as long as >>there are promised improvements on security (and number of patches), >>then operations can argue to management that Windows is being improved >>and that there is no need to change OS because of that. >> > > > Snip.. > > In 1995, there were 5-20 security patches per month with Windows. > > Fast forward to 2007. There are 5-20 security patches per month with Windows. > > Help me understand what is different today. > > Add to all this - the sophistication of the bad guys has also increased exponentially. > > The bar is always getting raised on both sides. > > Help me understand what is different today. > We are twelve years older and our brains are receding along with our hairlines! ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:52:23 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Article of Interest. Message-ID: <46FD0717.1080506@comcast.net> Main, Kerry wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >>Sent: September 28, 2007 12:41 AM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>Subject: Re: Article of Interest. >> >>Main, Kerry wrote: >> >>>In 1995, there were 5-20 security patches per month with Windows. >>>Help me understand what is different today. >> >>Because you live in a VMS universe where marketing and image are not >>permitted, you may not understand this. >> >>Why did people buy XP and why will they buy Vista ? Because of promises >>of the new product being safer, having better firewall, better virus >>protection, fewer bugs, fewer security problems. >> >>The fact that in reality, there may not be any difference is totally >>irrelevant. >> > > > Snip.. > > Forget the marketing for a second. > > You stated that you actually thought the Windows security environment was getting > better. Here is your statement: > > >>And in fairness to Microsoft, I think that the security of windows is >>slowly being improved from its absolutely dismal state. > > > No one disagrees that Windows marketing is good, but given the exponential increase in > the level of sophistication of the bad guys, do you really feel from a technical level > that the environment has improved since 1995? > I have run Windows 3.1, W95, W98, W98 2nd edition, W2K and W/XP. Yes, Windows has improved. It has improved a LOT since 1998. W2K was actually fairly reliable; not perfect but a huge improvement. W/XP was still better. It's not VMS nor is it ever likely to be but XP is definitely usable. I don't know about Vista and Vista will probably be obsolete by the time I buy another PC. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 2007 07:47:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Guidance with OpenVMS IA64 8.3 with Java 1.5 Problems Message-ID: In article <1190926567.435722.56090@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, mjjerabek writes: > > Also, anyone who is willing to describe their experience in using java > with OpenVMS and have a conversation with me on or off-line, > please ... I've been pleased with the performance of my Java applications on my much slower DEC 3000 Model 600S. But I don't do GUI applications, I do command line applications. I suspect you're running into issues with the Java GUI <-> X11 layers. The applicaitons may have been tuned to deal with Java GUI <-> MS Windows. But HP does not see VMS as a desktop OS so they haven't paid much attention to GUI issues and I don't think they will. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:04:30 +0000 (UTC) From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: LDAP server under OpenVMS Message-ID: Hello, the subject says it all: is there a LDAP server for OpenVMS? I know there is one from HP but it requires DECnet V. Any other solutions? Regards, Christoph Gartmann -- Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 Immunbiologie Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de D-79011 Freiburg, Germany http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 2007 19:09:23 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: LDAP server under OpenVMS Message-ID: <46fd5163@news.langstoeger.at> In article , gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: >the subject says it all: is there a LDAP server for OpenVMS? I know there is >one from HP but it requires DECnet V. Any other solutions? You mean the Enterprise Directory ? DN5 is optional (required only for OSI transport)... http://www.compaq.com/info/SP8103/SP8103PF.PDF V5.4 http://h30266.www3.hp.com/masterindex/spd/spd_00ddc37c.txt V5.5 Or did I missunderstood? -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:45:27 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: lexical for terminal attributes? Message-ID: Hi, Something like F$GETJPI("", "TT_TERMCOLS")? Or do I have to parse SHOW TERM/BRIEF ? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:07:54 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: lexical for terminal attributes? Message-ID: <7dd80f60709280607h35b4b8l3e732ac98547ac77@mail.gmail.com> On 9/28/07, Ron Johnson wrote: > Hi, > > Something like F$GETJPI("", "TT_TERMCOLS")? > > Or do I have to parse SHOW TERM/BRIEF ? To get the width of a terminal, use f$getd("tt","devbufsiz") as in $ write sys$output f$getd("tt","devbufsiz") Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:29:50 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: lexical for terminal attributes? Message-ID: On 09/28/07 08:07, Ken Robinson wrote: > On 9/28/07, Ron Johnson wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Something like F$GETJPI("", "TT_TERMCOLS")? >> >> Or do I have to parse SHOW TERM/BRIEF ? > > To get the width of a terminal, use > > f$getd("tt","devbufsiz") > > as in > > $ write sys$output f$getd("tt","devbufsiz") Thanks. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:53:54 +0200 From: "J.Jansen" Subject: OpenVPN for OpenVMS Message-ID: <4a392$46fceb81$915e511b$21947@news2.tudelft.nl> Hi all, has anyone tried to port Openvpn ( http://openvpn.net )to OpenVMS? Jouk Jansen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:21:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Problem running sysman Message-ID: Big John wrote: > The fix of increasing the buffer_limit in the SMISERVER .com file did > the trick. Can anyone explain why/how this would fix the INSVIRMEM error message ? From what I read, RUN /BUFFER_LIMIT affects the bufquota. So it affects how big a buffer you can specify when creating a mailbox for instance. How is this related to virtual memory (which would be the /PAGE_FILE parameter of the RUN command) ? Also, this was a LIB-F-INSVIRMEM and to me, "LIB" seems rather inconsistent with system level mailbox creation or device creation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:34:04 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Soymail not working with WASD Message-ID: <1190979244.770988.184310@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 27, 5:14 pm, Mark Daniel wrote: > ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sep 27, 4:37 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > >>On Sep 27, 4:33 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > >>>and yes, I run shutdown and it works fine and then > >>>my own startup com file and everything starts fine ...- Hide quoted text - > > >>>- Show quoted text - > > >>STARTUP_MYCOM.COM > > >>$ DEF/SYS HTTPD$STARTUP_SERVER "/SYSUAF=(SSL,RELAXED)" > >>$ @DSA0:[HT_ROOT.LOCAL]STARTUP WASD_SSL=1 > >>$ @DSA0:[HT_ROOT.LOCAL]SOYMAIL_STARTUP > > >>all logicals appear defined properly ... > > > $ HTTP/DO=AUTH=SKELKEY=robert:password > > %HTTPD-I-DO, 1 instance notified; NODE:HTTPd:80 > > > browser login box takes the above and errors to 401 ... > > Assuming the above is not a typo; the original instuctions > > >> WATCH is a tool that if it doesn't indicate exactly the reason for any given server behaviour usually provides a very good hint. Well past time it was utilised. As described in > > >> http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/doc/htd/htd_1900.html#hd_admin_no_config > > >> we'll now activate it by you entering at the command-line > > >> $ HTTPD/DO=AUTH=SKELKEY=_ROBERT: > > >> (underscore is significant). Then access > > >> https://your.system.name/httpd/-/admin/ > > >> which should provide you with a browser username/password dialog box requesting authentication for "SKELKEY". Enter _ROBERT (underscore is significant) and the password string. You should now have the Server Administration menu > > >> http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/doc/htd/admin.gif > > and the documentation > > http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/doc/htd/htd_1900.html#hd_admin_no_config > > emphasise the need for *an underscore* as the leading character of the > pseudo-username when using skeleton-key authentication. (This is done > so as to avoid any conflict with a real username.) > > Anyhow, it's off to my paying, daylight pastime now. We can continue > the dialog this evening (my TZ). Good hunting. If anyone else would > like to chip-in in the interim ... > > -- > Boris: Nothingness... non-existence... black emptiness... > Sonja: What did you say? > Boris: Oh, I was just planning my future. > [Woody Allen; Love and Death]- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - yes that was a type, the _ was there ... I let wasd set the security ... why the same 401 error running watch as trying to log into soymail? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:55:27 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Soymail not working with WASD Message-ID: <1190987727.654329.92190@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 28, 8:25 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > ultra...@gmail.com wrote: ReportMetaInfo] was disabled, I enabled it restarted the server ... went to www.marblecliff.com:8443/httpd/-/admin got the login box ... logged in using robert ... got error 401 with no other info ... why don't you try it ... i will set you up as $ HTTPD/DO=AUTH=SKELKEY=_ROBERT:MARKDANIEL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:00:14 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Soymail not working with WASD Message-ID: <1190988014.775310.10770@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Sep 28, 9:55 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Sep 28, 8:25 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > > > ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > ReportMetaInfo] was disabled, I enabled it > > restarted the server ... > > went towww.marblecliff.com:8443/httpd/-/admin > > got the login box ... > > logged in using robert ... > > got error 401 with no other info ... > > why don't you try it ... i will set you up as > > $ HTTPD/DO=AUTH=SKELKEY=_ROBERT:MARKDANIEL typo again ... goto https://www.marblecliff.com:8443/httpd/-/admin/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:41:24 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Soymail not working with WASD Message-ID: <1190990484.648290.269350@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 28, 8:25 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sep 27, 5:14 pm, Mark Daniel wrote: > 8< snip 8< > > yes that was a type, the _ was there ... > > > I let wasd set the security ... why the same 401 error running > > watch as trying to log into soymail? > > The same authentication failure reason! (I'm guessing.) > > Anyhow, let's ignore soyMAIL for the moment. We must get skeleton-key > authentication working so that some handle for the underlying failure > may be established. > > I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you seem to be having difficutly with > skeleton-key authentication. It's designed to circumvent most > configuration issues. It's a back-door (proivided you have the privilge > to establish it from the command-line in the first place). There are > ways to defeat it but you have to try awfully hard. > > So.... edit your HTTPD$CONFIG file and ensure directive > > [ReportMetaInfo] enabled > > is set to the show enabled. Then do whatever you do to restart the > server. I would suggest the > > $ HTTPD/DO=RESTART=NOW > > but as long as it does. > > Then, when you get the 401 open the source of the HTML report, it should > look something like > > > > > > > ERROR 401 Authorization Required > > > > ERROR 401  -  The requested resource requires > authorization. > >

Authentication failed.

Additional information:  > 1xx,  > 2xx,  > 3xx,  > 4xx,  > 5xx,  > Help >

>
WASD/9.2.1 Server at klaatu.private.net Port 443
> > > > with the containing a source code > indiocation as to why it might have failed. [ReportMetaInfo] was disabled, now enabled still nothing and no html output only 401 error ... it looks like the server never recognizes the username and/or password correctly, weither a vms one or a skelkey one ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:05:39 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: The Future of Computing, According to Intel Message-ID: <1190977539.763265.149090@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> The Future of Computing, According to Intel http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/19432/?a=f Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:56:15 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: The Future of Computing, According to Intel Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:05:39 -0700, Neil Rieck = wrote: > The Future of Computing, According to Intel > > http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/19432/?a=3Df > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > Noy unlike the story about Gordon Bell in May 28 New Yorker -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:48:56 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Time to PAK it in? Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "John Vottero" > writes: > > > > > >"Larry Kilgallen" wrote in message > >news:4k4O8$pUPLmE@eisner.encompasserve.org... > >> In article <3bQKi.2825$H22.1583@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, "Tim E. > >> Sneddon" writes: > >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >>>> DSPP is not providing the PAK for OpenVMS on Itanium. I just downloaded > >>>> a > >>>> new set of PAKs and there's no PAK for the OS. Does anyone want a 2U > >>>> rack > >>>> mounted space heater, or should I just put Linux on it and abandon > >>>> OpenVMS > >>>> altogether? > >>>> > >>> > >>> Our set of DSPP PAKs has one called OPENVMS-I64-MCOE. AFAIK this is the > >>> PAK > >>> for the Mission Critical Operating Environment which is equivalent > >>> to OPENVMS-ALPHA + OPENVMS-ALPHA-USER + some other things like volume > >>> shadowing. > >> > >> They might have provided those, and have done so on Alpha, but the > >> agreements I have seen always said that the machine was supposed to > >> have a regular VMS license already and DSPP only provided layered > >> product licenses. > > > >True. But some of us bought Itaniums before they were available with > >OpenVMS license PAKs and we were told not to worry because the OpenVMS PAK > >was in the DSPP download. Now I'm worried. > > > > Ditto... > > Here's a fix John: > > $ SET TIME="''F$time()-365-::" > > See me in a year's time for a new fix! ;) Don't forget that next year is a leap year. Plenty of time to work on a solution ;-) -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:54:39 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Time to PAK it in? Message-ID: In article , "John Vottero" writes: > > >"IanMiller" wrote in message >news:1190910990.050042.49450@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >> I've just checked and now see what you mean. The DSPP-I64-NOV08-1.TXT >> does not have a FOE/EOE/MOE pak in it. >> > >I asked DSPP about this and John Egolf has already responded, the missing >PAK was a mistake which will be corrected. John Egolf sent me a PAK! I am grateful for the PAK but I would like to have had an explaination as to why there was no PAK in what I'd downloaded. However, since you have posted here that it was a mistake/oversight, I'm content. Back to work... -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:05:05 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Time to PAK it in? Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > John Egolf sent me a PAK! > > I am grateful for the PAK but I would like to have had an explaination > as to why there was no PAK in what I'd downloaded. However, since you > have posted here that it was a mistake/oversight, I'm content. > > Back to work... > Not to speak for John (he sits nearby) but the systems for PAK generation were upgraded (newer HW, etc.) a few months back. He also cleaned up the command procedures, etc. to get rid of lots of cruft that had built up over the years. I know because he had me look at some of it. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:23:28 -0700 From: Pierre Subject: Re: username/nocom vs. sylogin Message-ID: <1190989408.756826.288240@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> thanks all Pierre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:33:56 -0000 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <1190968436.710774.299720@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 28, 1:38 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >[snip] > SLS is your friend. > > Damned shame HP isn't porting it to ia64. > SLS is prehistoric. If you like it then migrate to TAPESYS (http:// www.softwarepartners.com/) or use ABS (from HP) or consider one of the other products ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:59:45 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: In article <1190924879.979089.53460@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, jhjr4381 wrote: > I just noticed that that the backup command for the 1st disk had a / > norewind. The second had /rewind, and all subsequent have /norewind. > Tell me it didn't rewind and write over the 1st save set / image on > the tape! BTW - I really did inherit these! /norewind is the default. This can catch you out if what you really wanted to do was overwrite the tape - it just trundles up the tape until it finds the end of tape marker. If the tape is full, you've just wasted some time. /rewind will overwrite the tape from the beginning. What I do is to MOUNT the tape at the beginning of a backup procedure and check that the label is the correct one. Note that in certain circumstances, after a MOUNT/FOREIGN, you can end up with a stale label name, so I do a normal MOUNT for label checking. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:29:20 -0500 From: Wayne Sewell Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <00A6E529.BFC54FF7.1@tachysoft.com> >From: IanMiller >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior >Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:33:56 -0000 >On Sep 28, 1:38 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >>[snip] >> SLS is your friend. >> >> Damned shame HP isn't porting it to ia64. >> > >SLS is prehistoric. If you like it then migrate to TAPESYS (http:// >www.softwarepartners.com/) Absolutely. We have picked up many of the former SLS users. TS has been running on itan since the first wave of porting seminars. The conversion is pretty painless, since the SLS database is pretty similar to the old TS 5.2 format. Converting from SLS is basically the same as upgrading from 5.2. TS customers *never* worry about overwriting tapes. Wayne =============================================================================== Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting (281)812-0738 wayne@tachysoft.com http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html =============================================================================== Curly:"Hey, I'm no mule." Moe:"No, your ears are too short!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 05:46:15 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <1190983575.815714.256310@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 27, 4:18 pm, jhjr4381 wrote: > On Sep 26, 12:11 pm, "Richard Brodie" wrote: > > > "jhjr4381" wrote in message > > >news:1190822080.542181.314400@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > > > > However, the log files show very inconsistent backup activity (number > > > of files stored - varies by 5-10k), only on the Vax disks, even if > > > done by itself. > > > One small point, that might help. I wouldn't call the files you create > > with /LIST log files. They are save set listing files; useful as a record > > of the contents of the tape. > > > The logging information will be in the standard output of where > > the backup job ran from. That would be the place to start looking > > for errors. If it's run as a batch job specifying /NOLOG, fix > > that first. > > Paul, > > Thanks, wasn't aware of the 'other' .log file being created and found > them. There were several errors involed over the last few weeks: > > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LIST=DKA100:[BACKUP]DUA510FUL.LOG/IMAGE - > /NOALIAS - > /RECORD/IGNORE=(INTERLOCK,LABEL,NOBACKUP)/NOASSIST $1$DUA510: Be sure you understand the implications of /IGNORE=INTERLOCK. It's perfectly fine to use it as long as you understand what it does. I'd also check whether you really want /IGNORE=NOBACKUP. On a system disk it is normal that the page, swap, and dump files are marked no backup. This is so that you don't waste resources backing up data that will never be used. The file headers for these files ARE backed up, however, and the files are recreated during a restore, but no data is restored. But no data need be restored! So I'd take that out unless you have some other reason to have it there. > - > RDAXP$MKB500:DUA510.BCK > %BACKUP-F-WRITEERR, error writing DKA100:[BACKUP]DUA510FUL.LOG;198 > -RMS-E-EXT, ACP file extend failed > -SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA, process quota exceeded > > So, I gather there's a user or system set quota getting exceeded. How > can I display the user/process quota that's causing the problem? $ SHOW PROCESS/QUOTA This won't tell you which one. Based on the fact that a file-extend operation failed I'd guess you need more DIOLM or FILLM. Hopefully someone else will chime in on this with more info. > > %BACKUP-E-READVERR, virtual read error on file [CMSLIB.MAN110.CMS > $034]MGA410_F.I > FDL;5 at block 69 > -SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read > > This looks like a problem with the disk. However, it looks like it > bypasses these files and continues.Use ANALYSE disk and check/fix it > out. Restore if necessary/able? The one time this happened to me (it was ca. 1992) I needed to do a low-level reformat of the drive. I'd do a full backup immediately to save what's still good and then low level-reformat the disk or just get a new disk. I don't think there's a DCL command for low-level formatting. You need something more specific to your drive. Hopefully someone else more knowledgeable of these things will chime in. > > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LIST=SYS$SYSDEVICE:[BACKUP]DUA600FUL.LOG/IMAGE - > /NOALIAS - > /RECORD/IGNORE=(INTERLOCK,LABEL,NOBACKUP)/NOASSIST $1$DUA600: > - > RDAXP$MKB500:DUA600.BCK > %BACKUP-F-POSITERR, error positioning RDAXP$MKB500:[000000]DUA600.BCK; > -SYSTEM-F-OPINCOMPL, operation is incomplete > > This is on the 8th disk of the backup. It seems as if the tape drive > has gotten a bit weary and can't find the EOF on the last save set to > position the beginning of the last backup on this tape. Yep, looks like a tape drive error to me. Is it an old tape? Has the drive been cleaned on a regular basis? I never got this on my DLT drive but I did see it often on my 4mm DDS-2 drives when I used DDS-2 tapes! > > I did see that there's a 'set noon' at the top of the DCL. I'm > assuming that since that's there, instead of aborting on some of these > errors, the batch job continued right to the "image backup has > successfully completed" at the end of the .com file, letting the > operator walk away fat 'n happy! guess I better take a look at the > DCL manual for error checking. I'd rather it fail and know about it! The point of the SET NOON appears to have been to backup what you can. At one level, this makes sense. No point in not saving data from the last 6 disks if the backup of the second disk fails. HOWEVER, it shouldn't claim a successful job if one or more of the backups fail. It should exit with a message giving the errors and for which disks. That would take some rewriting of the DCL command procedure or the operator should always check the log file for error messages. > > Thanks to all for the suggestions! keep 'em coming, I don't mind > learning ! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:18:01 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: On 09/28/07 03:33, IanMiller wrote: > On Sep 28, 1:38 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> [snip] >> SLS is your friend. >> >> Damned shame HP isn't porting it to ia64. >> > > SLS is prehistoric. As prehistoric as DCL. SLS works, it's solid, it's simple and it's flexible. $ STORAGE SELECT drive_1 $ STORAGE ALLOCATE ... $ tape_vol = SLS$RELNUM $ STORAGE LOAD tape_vol $ INIT/MEDIA=COMPACT drive_1 tape_vol $ MOUNT/FOREIGN drive_1 $ vms backup or Rdb backup $ STORAGE SET VOLUME tape_vol /SCRATCH=... /NOTES=.../LOCATION=... $ STORAGE UNLOAD DRIVE drive_1 > If you like it then migrate to TAPESYS (http:// > www.softwarepartners.com/) or use ABS (from HP) or consider one of the > other products Our company won't buy system software from small companies. (Bad experience trying to help after hours.) ABS doesn't support Rdb v7.x. Otherwise we'd have used it. We're supremely happy with SLS. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:19:47 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: On 09/28/07 07:29, Wayne Sewell wrote: >> From: IanMiller >> X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >> Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior >> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:33:56 -0000 > > >> On Sep 28, 1:38 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >>> [snip] >>> SLS is your friend. >>> >>> Damned shame HP isn't porting it to ia64. >>> >> SLS is prehistoric. If you like it then migrate to TAPESYS (http:// >> www.softwarepartners.com/) > > Absolutely. We have picked up many of the former SLS users. TS has been > running on itan since the first wave of porting seminars. The conversion is > pretty painless, since the SLS database is pretty similar to the old TS 5.2 > format. Converting from SLS is basically the same as upgrading from 5.2. > > TS customers *never* worry about overwriting tapes. I've never seen SLS select an allocated tape. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:29:14 -0700 From: "Bart.Zorn@gmail.com" Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <1190986154.347677.63890@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> According to the SPD for ABS V4.4, ABS uses RMU for Rdb backup and restore and is compatible with Rdb V7.0-6 up to V7.2 Regards, Bart Zorn On Sep 28, 3:18 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: [ S n i p ] > ABS doesn't support Rdb v7.x. Otherwise we'd have used it. > > We're supremely happy with SLS. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 2007 08:48:11 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: In article <1190983575.815714.256310@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Sep 27, 4:18 pm, jhjr4381 wrote: [...] >> %BACKUP-E-READVERR, virtual read error on file [CMSLIB.MAN110.CMS >> $034]MGA410_F.I >> FDL;5 at block 69 >> -SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read >> >> This looks like a problem with the disk. However, it looks like it >> bypasses these files and continues.Use ANALYSE disk and check/fix it >> out. Restore if necessary/able? > > The one time this happened to me (it was ca. 1992) I needed to do a > low-level reformat of the drive. I'd do a full backup immediately to > save what's still good and then low level-reformat the disk or just > get a new disk. I don't think there's a DCL command for low-level > formatting. You need something more specific to your drive. Hopefully > someone else more knowledgeable of these things will chime in. "-SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR" means that a bad block was revectored at some time in the past. [CMSLIB.MAN110.CMS$034]MGA410_F.I had a bad block. The file system in cooperation with the disk drive mapped around the bad spot. The file system also attempted to retrieve the original data from the bad spot and copy it to the good spot. It was unable to retrieve the original data. So it marked the revectored good spot with a "forced error" flag. Every attempt to read that block will get a %SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR until that block is overwritten. Typically you would want to delete the file and recover it from other sources. Recovering the file from backup is likely to be unhelpful since the data on your backup tapes is probably bad as well. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 2007 08:50:03 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 09/28/07 03:33, IanMiller wrote: >> On Sep 28, 1:38 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >>> [snip] >>> SLS is your friend. >>> >>> Damned shame HP isn't porting it to ia64. >>> >> >> SLS is prehistoric. > > As prehistoric as DCL. > > SLS works, it's solid, it's simple and it's flexible. > > $ STORAGE SELECT drive_1 > $ STORAGE ALLOCATE ... > $ tape_vol = SLS$RELNUM > $ STORAGE LOAD tape_vol > $ INIT/MEDIA=COMPACT drive_1 tape_vol > $ MOUNT/FOREIGN drive_1 > $ vms backup or Rdb backup > $ STORAGE SET VOLUME tape_vol /SCRATCH=... /NOTES=.../LOCATION=... > $ STORAGE UNLOAD DRIVE drive_1 > >> If you like it then migrate to TAPESYS (http:// >> www.softwarepartners.com/) or use ABS (from HP) or consider one of the >> other products > > Our company won't buy system software from small companies. (Bad > experience trying to help after hours.) Unfortunate. Tapesys is a good product. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:59:55 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: Interesting. We last checked before v7.0-6, and have been happy with SLS ever since. Still, it never hurts to look at something new. On 09/28/07 08:29, Bart.Zorn@gmail.com wrote: > According to the SPD for ABS V4.4, ABS uses RMU for Rdb backup and > restore and is compatible with Rdb V7.0-6 up to V7.2 > > Regards, > > Bart Zorn > > On Sep 28, 3:18 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > [ S n i p ] > >> ABS doesn't support Rdb v7.x. Otherwise we'd have used it. >> >> We're supremely happy with SLS. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:04:43 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: AEF wrote: > [...snip...] >>This looks like a problem with the disk. However, it looks like it >>bypasses these files and continues.Use ANALYSE disk and check/fix it >>out. Restore if necessary/able? > > > The one time this happened to me (it was ca. 1992) I needed to do a > low-level reformat of the drive. I'd do a full backup immediately to > save what's still good and then low level-reformat the disk or just > get a new disk. I don't think there's a DCL command for low-level > formatting. You need something more specific to your drive. Hopefully > someone else more knowledgeable of these things will chime in. You can do a low-level format of a SCSI disk by using the (unsupported) Sys$Etc:RZTools_Alpha.Exe utility: $ mcr sys$etc:rztools_alpha RZTools (Rel. 10/29/93) RZTools> [ /h for help ] /h RZT [device] [/command[=value] /...] Commands Value required? Function -------- --------------- -------- ... snip ... FO rmat SCSI FORMAT ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:03:15 -0500 From: Wayne Sewell Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <00A6E536.DE70B79A.1@tachysoft.com> >From: Ron Johnson >User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070828) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior >On 09/28/07 03:33, IanMiller wrote: >> On Sep 28, 1:38 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >>> [snip] >>> SLS is your friend. >>> >>> Damned shame HP isn't porting it to ia64. >>> >> >> SLS is prehistoric. > >As prehistoric as DCL. > >SLS works, it's solid, it's simple and it's flexible. > >$ STORAGE SELECT drive_1 >$ STORAGE ALLOCATE ... >$ tape_vol = SLS$RELNUM >$ STORAGE LOAD tape_vol >$ INIT/MEDIA=COMPACT drive_1 tape_vol >$ MOUNT/FOREIGN drive_1 >$ vms backup or Rdb backup >$ STORAGE SET VOLUME tape_vol /SCRATCH=... /NOTES=.../LOCATION=... >$ STORAGE UNLOAD DRIVE drive_1 > >> If you like it then migrate to TAPESYS (http:// >> www.softwarepartners.com/) or use ABS (from HP) or consider one of the >> other products > >Our company won't buy system software from small companies. There aren't many companies of any size left for vms. >(Bad >experience trying to help after hours.) > Software Partners has after hours support, via pager. >ABS doesn't support Rdb v7.x. Otherwise we'd have used it. > But tapesys does. =============================================================================== Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting (281)812-0738 wayne@tachysoft.com http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html =============================================================================== Curly:"Hey, I'm no mule." Moe:"No, your ears are too short!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:05:48 -0500 From: Wayne Sewell Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <00A6E537.393BBC5B.3@tachysoft.com> >From: Ron Johnson >User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070828) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior >In-Reply-To: <00A6E529.BFC54FF7.1@tachysoft.com> >> >> TS customers *never* worry about overwriting tapes. > >I've never seen SLS select an allocated tape. > Of course not. It is based on an early version of tapesys. That was addressed to the dcl backup guy. =============================================================================== Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting (281)812-0738 wayne@tachysoft.com http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html =============================================================================== Curly:"Hey, I'm no mule." Moe:"No, your ears are too short!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:21:04 -0500 From: Wayne Sewell Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <00A6E539.5B6021E4.7@tachysoft.com> >From: Ron Johnson >User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070828) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior > >SLS works, it's solid, it's simple and it's flexible. > >We're supremely happy with SLS. > As long as you don't plan on itanium, as you yourself noted. I can understand why they didn't port it, because there were a lot of hacks to make vms backup run under the control of another image in the same process, and some of them were heavily affected by the architecture changes. I had to go to a completely different mechanism for intercepting the mounts, but fortunately one that is less susceptible to architecture and OS changes, making the product stronger. And there were a lot of similar hacks in early tapesys, which sls is derived from. Fortunately, since tapesys went to the backup api a decade ago, porting to itan was comparatively easy. Wayne =============================================================================== Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting (281)812-0738 wayne@tachysoft.com http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html =============================================================================== Curly:"Hey, I'm no mule." Moe:"No, your ears are too short!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:50:25 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <1190991025.730305.87870@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 28, 9:48 am, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article <1190983575.815714.256...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > > > > On Sep 27, 4:18 pm, jhjr4381 wrote: > [...] > >> %BACKUP-E-READVERR, virtual read error on file [CMSLIB.MAN110.CMS > >> $034]MGA410_F.I > >> FDL;5 at block 69 > >> -SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read > > >> This looks like a problem with the disk. However, it looks like it > >> bypasses these files and continues.Use ANALYSE disk and check/fix it > >> out. Restore if necessary/able? > > > The one time this happened to me (it was ca. 1992) I needed to do a > > low-level reformat of the drive. I'd do a full backup immediately to > > save what's still good and then low level-reformat the disk or just > > get a new disk. I don't think there's a DCL command for low-level > > formatting. You need something more specific to your drive. Hopefully > > someone else more knowledgeable of these things will chime in. > > "-SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR" means that a bad block was revectored at > some time in the past. [CMSLIB.MAN110.CMS$034]MGA410_F.I had a bad > block. The file system in cooperation with the disk drive mapped > around the bad spot. The file system also attempted to retrieve > the original data from the bad spot and copy it to the good spot. > It was unable to retrieve the original data. So it marked the > revectored good spot with a "forced error" flag. Every attempt to > read that block will get a %SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR until that block is > overwritten. Typically you would want to delete the file and recover > it from other sources. Recovering the file from backup is likely to > be unhelpful since the data on your backup tapes is probably bad as well. Right. I forgot to mention that I was getting more and more of them as time went on so I low-level formatted the drive. If this is just an isolated incident, maybe that's not necessary. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:59:51 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <46FD16E7.10104@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Sep 28, 9:48 am, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > >>In article <1190983575.815714.256...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> >> >>>On Sep 27, 4:18 pm, jhjr4381 wrote: >> >>[...] >> >>>>%BACKUP-E-READVERR, virtual read error on file [CMSLIB.MAN110.CMS >>>>$034]MGA410_F.I >>>>FDL;5 at block 69 >>>>-SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read >>> >>>>This looks like a problem with the disk. However, it looks like it >>>>bypasses these files and continues.Use ANALYSE disk and check/fix it >>>>out. Restore if necessary/able? >>> >>>The one time this happened to me (it was ca. 1992) I needed to do a >>>low-level reformat of the drive. I'd do a full backup immediately to >>>save what's still good and then low level-reformat the disk or just >>>get a new disk. I don't think there's a DCL command for low-level >>>formatting. You need something more specific to your drive. Hopefully >>>someone else more knowledgeable of these things will chime in. >> >>"-SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR" means that a bad block was revectored at >>some time in the past. [CMSLIB.MAN110.CMS$034]MGA410_F.I had a bad >>block. The file system in cooperation with the disk drive mapped >>around the bad spot. The file system also attempted to retrieve >>the original data from the bad spot and copy it to the good spot. >>It was unable to retrieve the original data. So it marked the >>revectored good spot with a "forced error" flag. Every attempt to >>read that block will get a %SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR until that block is >>overwritten. Typically you would want to delete the file and recover >>it from other sources. Recovering the file from backup is likely to >>be unhelpful since the data on your backup tapes is probably bad as well. > > > Right. I forgot to mention that I was getting more and more of them as > time went on so I low-level formatted the drive. If this is just an > isolated incident, maybe that's not necessary. > > AEF > If your disk developed, and revectored, several bad blocks I would suggest replacing rather than reformatting the disk. IT'S TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!! The wise take these little hints very seriously! Whatever you do, make a backup while you still can! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:02:48 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message news:46FD16E7.10104@comcast.net... > If your disk developed, and revectored, several bad blocks I would suggest replacing > rather than reformatting the disk. IT'S TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!! I fear your sense of urgency on the expected future life of a disk that was reformatted 15 years ago is misplaced. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:39:42 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: AEF wrote: > I'd also check whether you really want /IGNORE=NOBACKUP. > But no data need be restored! Some people actually use SET FILE/NOBACKUP for various other large files or directories which are either backed up separately, or are tyhemselves backups from another system and don't need to be backed up. But when you wish to move disks around, you then need to use /IGNORE=NOBACKUP to ensure you truly get a full image of the drive. So during daily operations, the backup will skip over large areas that don't need to be dealt with by that backup, but during special operations, you need to specify the /IGNORE to make sure you capture that data. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:44:11 -0000 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Wireless mail and connectivity with VMS server Message-ID: <1191001451.974615.282820@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> We've been seeing a rash of customers being sold "new wonderful do- all" phones with service that will make their lives easier, keep them in touch with everything, wash their cars and clean their kids diapers. They often buy these without checking if there's any possibility of their current email infrastructure actually supporting the phones or the associated services. This has happened at sites running TCPIP Services with basic SMTP/POP/IMAP and PC sites running Mailtraq, Communigate Pro, and other mail packages. In each case when the inevitable problems crop up, the phone vendor demands an MS Exchange installation and expresses shock and dismay that they are not already running exchange, and that they cannot support their phones and all the wonderful features if the customer is not running exchange. This is even the case with Palm phones not running the windows phone software. They claim to support IMAP and other standards, but in practice use of the phone is wretched; where standard IMAP and SMTP clients work perfectly with any or all of the servers (even one old VAX running IMAP; its leisurely but reliable), the phones hang, are puke slow, etc (they run much faster when talking to an exchange server even if that server is on an older/slower box) So my question, in case anyone knows: Is there a smartphone and smartphone service (in the continental US, preferably available nationwide) that is actually designed to run with "open" standards, like IMAP/SMTP/POP, etc, and will play nicely with relatively standards based servers? For now it would be great if that means TCPIP Services or TCPware, but the various alternative PC mail servers too. Not just phones that have the ability to connect but ones that actually _work_. Putting exchange in means a huge cascade of MS crap following along; got to have active directory, which means you need a server for that (or SBS which is a crock of s***), and windows has to take control of DNS, and windows has to take control of DHCP.... etc. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.530 ************************