INFO-VAX Sun, 13 Apr 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 206 Contents: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available RE: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available RE: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: scripting a telnet session to VMS Re: scripting a telnet session to VMS Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:27:22 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:20:54 -0700, Richard B. Gilbert > wrote: > >> Tom Linden wrote: >>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:05:37 -0700, Richard B. Gilbert >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It's been said before but. . . THE LANGUAGE DOES NOT MAKE THE >>>> PROGRAM. You don't have to write bad code in C, it's just easier to >>>> do so than it really should be. You could write poor code in BLISS, >>>> you'd just have to work a little harder to make it bad. You can >>>> write a buggy program in ADA; you just have to work harder. . . . >>> You don't get it, why write code using an inferior tool, you have to >>> expend >>> more effort and the code will be more difficult to maintain? It is >>> about >>> programming standards. >>> >> >> Has everyone finally managed to agree on just what the "programming >> standards" should be? I've always tried to write code that could be >> understood and maintained by those who came after me. I don't know >> that I've succeeded but I've tried. . . . In the process, I've used >> at least seven different assembler languages, Fortran II, Fortran IV, >> Fortran 77, PL/1, C, DCL, sh, ksh, awk, and, perhaps, a few that I've >> forgotten. > > I've got you beat, or maybe I remember the (names of) ones you have > forgotten:-) > >> >> Generally, you have to use the tools that are available, whatever they >> might be. It has been a while since I looked at pricing but a Fortran >> compiler license for the VAX 11/750 used to cost $5,000 US. The price >> was approximately the same for ANY of the available compilers. This >> meant that you didn't always have the appropriate tool for the job; >> you had to "make do" with whatever was available. > > Sorry to belabor the point, but just because a compiler is expensive > doesn't > imply that using an inferior tool is the best choice, in fact, I would > argue > to the contrary. > If you don't have the $5000 for the tool of your choice, you must use whatever is available! Or, perhaps, look for another job. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:18:42 GMT From: Antonio Carlini Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: "Tom Linden" wrote in news:op.t9h9wofxhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net: > Sorry to belabor the point, but just because a compiler is expensive > doesn't imply that using an inferior tool is the best choice, in fact, > I would argue to the contrary. I'm not sure you've seen his point going by at all. If you have a compiler for X on site already and the best tool for today's job is Y but costs $Z then the odds are really good that X will be used. These days the question is more likely to boil down to "is Y available for free and does it produce reasonable machine code", but the principle is the same. This is even assuming that anyone else agrees with you that Y is better than X for the job in hand, of course. Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:26:06 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48010ccc$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> If nobody ever tried anything new, we'd still be chipping flint and >> bashing JF with stone axes instead of words. > > The newer stuff doesn't necessarily work better. The fact that I am > still here tends to show that words may be less effective than stone > axes :-) > > I just installed some "BitTorrent" software, apparently written with a > mixture of GCC and python. The thing consumes 100% of the cpu time given > to it. All it does is transfer data. A properly witten program in C on > an allmighty Microvax II would leave some spare CPU cycles. A proper written Python script should also be able to do that (unless you have an absurd fast internet connection). > Kiddies are now so far detached from the machine through layers of > software and middleware that they no longer have control over how their > software actually runs. So all these newfangled tools end up creating > software that is overlybloated, slower and not really using the CPU and > OS intelligently. I don't think I would blame the software and the middleware, but you are correct about so many not understanding what is going on inside the software. The result can be developers that spend most of the time optimizing a micro seconds of a loop in their code, but for each iteration get a CLOB from the database and parse it into an XML document. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:31:16 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48010e01$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Generally, you have to use the tools that are available, whatever they > might be. It has been a while since I looked at pricing but a Fortran > compiler license for the VAX 11/750 used to cost $5,000 US. The price > was approximately the same for ANY of the available compilers. This > meant that you didn't always have the appropriate tool for the job; you > had to "make do" with whatever was available. Price of tools are often an important factor in the decision about tools. The good thing (for developers in general not for those making tools) is that the new standard price for development tools are zero. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:35:13 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48010eee$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>> Just as for any other server-OS on the planet, even 3270 >>> on MVS is replaced by other client tools, web based or >>> whatever. VMS is no different than any other server-OS >>> in this regard. >> >> OS that are relegated to server only stuff don't have much of a future. >> Even Linux knows that to gain market traction, it needs to have a >> modern >> user interface. > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the last > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS? No. I think he is dreaming about OpenVMS on the desktop for word processing etc.. The development for server OS's seems to be going in the opposite direction - less GUI. As an example Windows 2008 Server Core Installation. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:44:48 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <895a5$48011131$cef8887a$5704@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the last > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS? Which ones run on VMS ? Do any run on MacIntosh ? Solaris ? > And btw, Microsoft is under a lot of pressure to come up with a better > command line infrastructure right now as the feedback they received is > that GUI's do not cut it for production environments e.g. large batch > and reporting type environments. That is certaintly not because of VMS, it is because of Linux. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:48:16 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <4a28f$480111b4$cef8887a$30252@TEKSAVVY.COM> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > If you don't have the $5000 for the tool of your choice, you must use > whatever is available! Or, perhaps, look for another job. Looking back in time, Bell argued that its VAX-C compiler was far superior to the equivalent from Microsoft, and thus continued to justify the $6000 (in canada) price for it. For that amount of money, you could buy a PC and the MS C compiler that, by the way, came with a complete development environment. As a whole, Digital priced itself out of the modern IT world, and one big one was the compilers because that steered away potential developers. (When the hobbysist programme came along, it did make it much easier for someone to so freeware development, but that came too late, VMS had already declined out of mainstream. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:57:07 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> Generally, you have to use the tools that are available, whatever they >> might be. It has been a while since I looked at pricing but a Fortran >> compiler license for the VAX 11/750 used to cost $5,000 US. The price >> was approximately the same for ANY of the available compilers. This >> meant that you didn't always have the appropriate tool for the job; >> you had to "make do" with whatever was available. > > Price of tools are often an important factor in the decision > about tools. > > The good thing (for developers in general not for those making > tools) is that the new standard price for development tools > are zero. > > Arne Now, it's really important how many applications are available for a particulary hardware architecture and operating system. Windows is successful because of the number and variety of applications available. It also helps that the price is right! I would guess that there are more applications available for Windows X86 than for any other platform! Volume keeps the prices of the apps down. That's why I can get Turbo-Tax for around $40. What do you think the same software written for VMS would cost? It could be done and it could probably be made to run on Unix/Linux as well. It has not been done because the market isn't there in any meaningful way. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:59:22 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <687a$48011337$cef8887a$16763@TEKSAVVY.COM> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > No. I think he is dreaming about OpenVMS on the desktop > for word processing etc.. I am NOT dreaming. Do you remember one of the last DEC adverts with a music from Information Society ? you can sample the tune it at: (requires itunes) http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?i=166466&id=166480&s=143455 This was used as part of DEC's unveiling of workstations AND a massive office software depployment that included DECwrite, DECcalc, the compound document architecture with converters to all the then popular formats, integration with ALLIN-1. This architecture blew the socks off anything Microsoft had, and allowed you to have a word processing document that embedded a spreadsheet residing on a different node in your network. This was before Microsoft had any usable networking on its DOS. (I guess by 1988, MS had a primitive Windows 1.0 ?) But DEC only pitched it to its own customers, never did any "public" adverts on this, didn't price itself competitively (saying that its products were superior and thus warranted 10 times the price of compeitors). Also, DEC didn't update the converters quickly enough and when Palmer came in, the whole thing was slashed to pieces. Yeah, today, DECwrite is long on the tooth. But it is essentially what DEC had in 1988/1989, and put yourself back in that timeframe, and that software was way ahead of its time back then. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:59:14 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: April 12, 2008 3:35 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > >> Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > >>> Just as for any other server-OS on the planet, even 3270 > >>> on MVS is replaced by other client tools, web based or > >>> whatever. VMS is no different than any other server-OS > >>> in this regard. > >> > >> OS that are relegated to server only stuff don't have much of a > future. > >> Even Linux knows that to gain market traction, it needs to have a > >> modern > >> user interface. > > > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the > last > > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS? > > No. I think he is dreaming about OpenVMS on the desktop > for word processing etc.. > > The development for server OS's seems to be going in the opposite > direction - less GUI. > > As an example Windows 2008 Server Core Installation. > > Arne Arne - You are correct about the server management. Batch, reporting, scheduling and overall customization of server related jobs are definitely command line driven. Having stated this, it is important to have GUI interfaces for managing those servers because of Operations and Help desk staff i.e. junior staff that need to do basic systems management e.g. user, print, backups etc. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:03:40 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: April 12, 2008 3:45 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the > last > > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS? > > Which ones run on VMS ? Do any run on MacIntosh ? Solaris ? > Does the user clicking on the browser or GUI care? > > And btw, Microsoft is under a lot of pressure to come up with a > better > > command line infrastructure right now as the feedback they received > is > > that GUI's do not cut it for production environments e.g. large batch > > and reporting type environments. > > > That is certaintly not because of VMS, it is because of Linux. Neither - it is because server Operations requires highly customized batch, print and other type command line requirements that are not suited to GUI's= . It has zero to do with any other competitive OS platform features (other th= an Microsoft trying to copy similar features etc). Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "winston19842005@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <1f6d80fc-cb0e-4115-b5d8-67330a5e0c4b@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Apr 10, 9:22 am, Dan O'Reilly wrote: > At 07:34 AM 4/10/2008, Bob Koehler wrote: > > >In article , > >=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: > > > > Try using the correct name, OpenVMS (or "Open VMS"). > > > DEC thought that was the correct name, and look where they are now. > > Yeah, just look: 30 years later & VMS is still being developed & sold... When did the name change? I remember in 1994, going to a show in Atlanta... "Open" was the new catch-phrase. I received a pin (with a "blinken-light") that said "OS/400 is OPEN" (or was it "AS/400"). So, "OS" really was "Open System 400". I thought I learned that VMS was renamed OpenVMS about that time... Actually, I've never seen anything MORE CLOSED than OS/400. Working on it today, and it is still pretty nasty. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:28:11 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj schrieb: > The good thing (for developers in general not for those making > tools) is that the new standard price for development tools > are zero. Well, at some point somehow the tool makers have to be paid for their work by somebody. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:30:43 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Tom Linden schrieb: > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:27:05 -0700, AEF wrote: > >> And then there's Microsoft software. Does anyone think PL/I could save >> them? Well, it might help a little, I'm not really sure. > > > Funny, you should bring that up, because I asked Cutler about 10 years ago > if they had any interest in PL/I on NT, No. I think at that point in time IBM had already a PL/I product for NT. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:08:10 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Michael Kraemer wrote: > Arne Vajhøj schrieb: > >> The good thing (for developers in general not for those making >> tools) is that the new standard price for development tools >> are zero. > > Well, at some point somehow the tool makers have to be paid > for their work by somebody. > > Sun Microsystems, for example, has made both the Solaris O/S and the development tools available for free! You can download Solaris 10 and the development tools. You do have to accept the license agreement. You can get the software on DVD for a nominal charge or free, depending on the policy of the week. That means that just about anybody can develop applications for Solaris. They don't require you to, they just hope that some of their customers will do so. It also means that people who want to learn programming and/or system administration can get started very cheaply. Sun hardware is available, used, on e-Bay for very reasonable prices. You can pick up an Ultra 10 with "Creator-3D" graphics for less than $100 US. Most of them are sold without a disk drive. An 80 GB EIDE drive for $70 US puts you in business as a hobbyist, student, applications developer or whatever. You can put a SCSI HBA in the box and set up the largest disk farm you can afford. You will probably want to add some RAM which is usually available at reasonable prices. More modern, and faster, hardware is available for somewhat more money. Older and slower is also available, sometimes for little more than the cost of shipping. Sun sells systems, service, and support. It seems to be working for them! $240/CPU/Year buys you the minimum support contract; access to patches and e-mailed Q&A. For more money, you get more; telephone support. For a lot more money you can get a Sun Engineer hardware or software to come on site and help out. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:14:21 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Tom Linden schrieb: > Sorry to belabor the point, but just because a compiler is expensive > doesn't > imply that using an inferior tool is the best choice, in fact, I would > argue > to the contrary. Often enough it wasn't the price of a PL/I product but simply (non)availability which hindered its widespread use. In the 1980s, a lot of people interested in IT purchased computers for home use. They learned programming in Pascal, C or Basic. AFAIK there wasn't any PL/I for the then popular Mac, Atari, Amiga, Amstrad etc. A good PL/I product probably would have been too heavy-weight for these entry-level machines anyway. Even the IBM PC hadn't a half decent PL/I until way into the 1990s. The only platforms where PL/I gained some popularity (and which could carry the heavy weight) were the "proprietary" MVS and VMS. When downsizing and open systems became the motd in 1990+, the main target platforms, such as Solaris, HP-UX, and other Unices had no viable PL/I infrastructure, not even AIX. If PL/I with 99% mainframe compatibility would have been available back then, it would have made a difference, but it wasn't there when it was needed most. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:50:38 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > Sun Microsystems, for example, has made both the Solaris O/S and the > development tools available for free! You can download Solaris 10 and > the development tools. You do have to accept the license agreement. You > can get the software on DVD for a nominal charge or free, depending on > the policy of the week. Been there, done that already :-) Sun Studio was free of charge ( but I would have agreed to pay some hobbyist compatible fee), and a Solaris 10 media set I picked up at eBay for a reasonable price (as I did for 7, 8 and 9). > > That means that just about anybody can develop applications for Solaris. > They don't require you to, they just hope that some of their customers > will do so. It also means that people who want to learn programming > and/or system administration can get started very cheaply. That's certainly a smart move on Sun's part. Increasing visibility at the low end, even if it implies losing some money in the short term, seems a better survival strategy to me than just hoping the high end would save the day. Unfortunately most companies, including HP and even IBM, seem to follow the latter strategy. > Sun hardware > is available, used, on e-Bay for very reasonable prices. You can pick > up an Ultra 10 with "Creator-3D" graphics for less than $100 US. Over here it's even cheaper :-) I was lucky enough to pickup a whole bunch of Ultra 30 plus extras, and an HP C8000 (the last PA RISC station) for a ridiculously low price from a local PC reseller. And though HP-UX is not downloadable, it is legal to install and run it once you got hold of some media. > > Sun sells systems, service, and support. It seems to be working for > them! Sure, but, coming back to the initial issue, somebody has to pay the tool developer's salaries, or you will get sub-optimal tools or no tools at all. Obviously Sun distributes the costs over all paying customers. That's fine with me, and if Sun succeeds in the long term, this may be sort of a proof that socialism *can' work :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:54:39 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <480159cc$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Looking back in time, Bell argued that its VAX-C compiler was far > superior to the equivalent from Microsoft, and thus continued to justify > the $6000 (in canada) price for it. For that amount of money, you could > buy a PC and the MS C compiler that, by the way, came with a complete > development environment. And I am not convinced that the VAX C 3.x compilers were that good. I recall build scripts with /NOOPT to be frequently seen. Some of it could have been bad code, but VAX C 3.x -> DEC C 4.x -> 5.x -> 6.x has seen great improvements in my opinion. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:58:00 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48015a95$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> No. I think he is dreaming about OpenVMS on the desktop >> for word processing etc.. > > > I am NOT dreaming. Do you remember one of the last DEC adverts with a > music from Information Society ? > you can sample the tune it at: (requires itunes) > > http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?i=166466&id=166480&s=143455 > > This was used as part of DEC's unveiling of workstations AND a massive > office software depployment that included DECwrite, DECcalc, the > compound document architecture with converters to all the then popular > formats, integration with ALLIN-1. > > This architecture blew the socks off anything Microsoft had, and allowed > you to have a word processing document that embedded a spreadsheet > residing on a different node in your network. This was before Microsoft > had any usable networking on its DOS. (I guess by 1988, MS had a > primitive Windows 1.0 ?) > > But DEC only pitched it to its own customers, never did any "public" > adverts on this, didn't price itself competitively (saying that its > products were superior and thus warranted 10 times the price of > compeitors). Also, DEC didn't update the converters quickly enough and > when Palmer came in, the whole thing was slashed to pieces. > > Yeah, today, DECwrite is long on the tooth. But it is essentially what > DEC had in 1988/1989, and put yourself back in that timeframe, and that > software was way ahead of its time back then. It was 20 years ago. The software was probably OK back then. But DEC could not have produced VAXstations to compete with those PC thingies price wise. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:03:36 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <11b70644-bc0d-44ce-86b8-8fb8fc755746@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Apr 12, 7:08 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Michael Kraemer wrote: > > Arne Vajh=F8j schrieb: > > >> The good thing (for developers in general not for those making > >> tools) is that the new standard price for development tools > >> are zero. > > > Well, at some point somehow the tool makers have to be paid > > for their work by somebody. > > Sun Microsystems, for example, has made both the Solaris O/S and the > development tools available for free! You can download Solaris 10 and > the development tools. You do have to accept the license agreement. > You can get the software on DVD for a nominal charge or free, depending > on the policy of the week. > > That means that just about anybody can develop applications for Solaris. > They don't require you to, they just hope that some of their customers > will do so. It also means that people who want to learn programming > and/or system administration can get started very cheaply. Sun hardware > is available, used, on e-Bay for very reasonable prices. You can pick > up an Ultra 10 with "Creator-3D" graphics for less than $100 US. Most > of them are sold without a disk drive. An 80 GB EIDE drive for $70 US > puts you in business as a hobbyist, student, applications developer or > whatever. > > You can put a SCSI HBA in the box and set up the largest disk farm you > can afford. You will probably want to add some RAM which is usually > available at reasonable prices. More modern, and faster, hardware is > available for somewhat more money. Older and slower is also available, > sometimes for little more than the cost of shipping. > > Sun sells systems, service, and support. It seems to be working for > them! $240/CPU/Year buys you the minimum support contract; access to > patches and e-mailed Q&A. For more money, you get more; telephone > support. For a lot more money you can get a Sun Engineer hardware or > software to come on site and help out. It's called loss leader marketing. It's been done for years by supermarkets and probably other retail stores. I remember long ago it was often only 99 cents for a 1/2 gallon of Tropicana OJ. Ah, those were the days. I forget when that stopped, but the strategy is still used. It's sort of like bait and switch, but without the deception part. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:03:43 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48015bed$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> winston19842005@yahoo.com wrote: > On Apr 10, 9:22 am, Dan O'Reilly wrote: >> At 07:34 AM 4/10/2008, Bob Koehler wrote: >>> In article , >>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >>>> Try using the correct name, OpenVMS (or "Open VMS"). >>> DEC thought that was the correct name, and look where they are now. >> Yeah, just look: 30 years later & VMS is still being developed & sold... > > When did the name change? I remember in 1994, going to a show in > Atlanta... "Open" was the new catch-phrase. The silent "Open" came with the POSIX compliance. It is many years ago, but I believe it could have been with (Open)VMS 6.1 ! Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:06:43 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48015ca0$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Michael Kraemer wrote: > Arne Vajhøj schrieb: >> The good thing (for developers in general not for those making >> tools) is that the new standard price for development tools >> are zero. > > Well, at some point somehow the tool makers have to be paid > for their work by somebody. True. But the big HW and SW companies often fund the development of those tools today out of the revenue from the production stuff. And some are done for free by developers having a day job doing end user software. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:13:42 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48015e43$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > And btw, Microsoft is under a lot of pressure to come up with a better > command line infrastructure right now They have: powershell. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 03:10:57 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj schrieb: > It was 20 years ago. > > The software was probably OK back then. > > But DEC could not have produced VAXstations to compete with > those PC thingies price wise. Decent PCs weren't cheap either in those days. And they had no OS ( unless you identify the M$ floppy controller aka MS-DOS as an OS ). VAXstations OTOH were ridiculously overprized compared to their RISC counterparts. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:08:53 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <4c82d8d8-0527-4149-a9b2-209aa860b5b9@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Apr 12, 7:50 pm, Michael Kraemer wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > > > Sun Microsystems, for example, has made both the Solaris O/S and the > > development tools available for free! You can download Solaris 10 and > > the development tools. You do have to accept the license agreement. You > > can get the software on DVD for a nominal charge or free, depending on > > the policy of the week. > > Been there, done that already :-) > Sun Studio was free of charge ( but I would have agreed > to pay some hobbyist compatible fee), and a Solaris 10 > media set I picked up at eBay for a reasonable price > (as I did for 7, 8 and 9). > > > > > That means that just about anybody can develop applications for Solaris. > > They don't require you to, they just hope that some of their customers > > will do so. It also means that people who want to learn programming > > and/or system administration can get started very cheaply. > > That's certainly a smart move on Sun's part. > Increasing visibility at the low end, even if it implies > losing some money in the short term, > seems a better survival strategy to me > than just hoping the high end would save the day. > Unfortunately most companies, including HP and even IBM, > seem to follow the latter strategy. > > > Sun hardware > > is available, used, on e-Bay for very reasonable prices. You can pick > > up an Ultra 10 with "Creator-3D" graphics for less than $100 US. > > Over here it's even cheaper :-) > I was lucky enough to pickup a whole bunch of Ultra 30 plus extras, > and an HP C8000 (the last PA RISC station) for a ridiculously low price > from a local PC reseller. And though HP-UX is not downloadable, > it is legal to install and run it once you got hold of some media. > > > > > Sun sells systems, service, and support. It seems to be working for > > them! > > Sure, but, coming back to the initial issue, > somebody has to pay the tool developer's salaries, > or you will get sub-optimal tools or no tools at all. > Obviously Sun distributes the costs over all paying customers. > That's fine with me, and if Sun succeeds in the long term, > this may be sort of a proof that socialism *can' work :-) Not socialism, loss leader. And will it work long term? Yes I see the smiley, but not sure to which parts of your sentence it applies. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:22:43 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48016061$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Tom Linden wrote: > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:46:30 -0700, Bob Willard > wrote: >> 2.C, in its place, is pretty good. In particular, when C is used for >> stuff >> that would otherwise have been written in assembly language, C is IMHO >> just dandy. Have you had good luck writing device drivers in PL/I? > > Maybe I am more familiar with C than you are with PL/I? > I haven't had a need to do so, but I easily could, and have done so > years ago > for unix, including replacing some portions of the kernel. The tape driver > on Primos was written in Fortran, BTW. Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:25:38 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:46:30 -0700, Bob Willard >> wrote: >>> 2.C, in its place, is pretty good. In particular, when C is used for >>> stuff >>> that would otherwise have been written in assembly language, C is >>> IMHO >>> just dandy. Have you had good luck writing device drivers in PL/I? >> Maybe I am more familiar with C than you are with PL/I? >> I haven't had a need to do so, but I easily could, and have done so >> years ago >> for unix, including replacing some portions of the kernel. The tape >> driver >> on Primos was written in Fortran, BTW. > > Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ? Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL, secondly don't know what you mean by supported. If I write a device driver that is my concern not HP's > > Arne -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:28:32 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:30:43 -0700, Michael Kraemer wrote: > Tom Linden schrieb: >> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:27:05 -0700, AEF wrote: >> >>> And then there's Microsoft software. Does anyone think PL/I could save >>> them? Well, it might help a little, I'm not really sure. >> Funny, you should bring that up, because I asked Cutler about 10 >> years ago >> if they had any interest in PL/I on NT, No. > > I think at that point in time IBM had already a PL/I product for NT. > No, they hadn't -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:59:19 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48018515$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Tom Linden wrote: > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Tom Linden wrote: >>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:46:30 -0700, Bob Willard >>> wrote: >>>> 2.C, in its place, is pretty good. In particular, when C is used >>>> for stuff >>>> that would otherwise have been written in assembly language, C is >>>> IMHO >>>> just dandy. Have you had good luck writing device drivers in PL/I? >>> Maybe I am more familiar with C than you are with PL/I? >>> I haven't had a need to do so, but I easily could, and have done so >>> years ago >>> for unix, including replacing some portions of the kernel. The tape >>> driver >>> on Primos was written in Fortran, BTW. >> >> Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ? > > Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL, Many people consider anything above assembler for HLL. > secondly don't know what you > mean by supported. If I write a device driver that is my concern not HP's Consider: supported = documented. I am not a driver person. Far from. But as I understand it then there are quite a few things you can not do in a driver and there are documentation for C about what you can use of C without breaking any of the rules. Does similar documentation exist in the PL/I documentation or in the VMS documentation or in a book for PL/I ? Even if the docs does not exist then you may still be able to write a driver in PL/I because you know what it does, but that does not cut it as supported. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:10:56 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Michael Kraemer wrote: > VAXstations OTOH were ridiculously overprized > compared to their RISC counterparts. Replace the word "ridiculously" with "artificially". DEC suffered from the "must not allow our high margin customers from starting to buy more powerful and cheaper systems from us". They never thought about attracting more new customers to compensate for the high marghin customers buying cheaper systems from DEC. So those high margin customers ended up buying smaller, more powerful and cheaper systems from companies DEC refused to admit competed against itself. (like compaq/microsoft) DEC had had many opportunities from the early 1980s to the late 1980s to really make it big. They missed them. Miseed the boat and were left behind. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:09:36 GMT From: Roger Ivie Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: On 2008-04-13, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ? >> >> Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL, > > Many people consider anything above assembler for HLL. Trick question on Alpha. AFAIK, the language choices for a driver are C and MACRO-32. Since MACRO-32 is a compiler on Alpha and Itanium, does it count as assembler or HLL? I don't think Alpha assembly drivers are supported. I fiddled with it a bit many years ago, but decided MACRO-32 was much more convenient; I had a really simple driver that could have gotten into and out of most of its routines in less code than the standard MACRO-32 prologue/epilogue, UNTIL I realized that some of my arguments might not be longword aligned. That's when I decided MACRO-32 was good enough. On Itanium, I'm just starting to get to the point where an E/I in ANA/CRA isn't total gibberish. -- roger ivie rivie@ridgenet.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:02:24 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: scripting a telnet session to VMS Message-ID: <480169ae$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator? >> Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows. >> >>> I can't believe you'd be so lax >>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard- >>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could >>> exploit. >> The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es. >> > Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged > Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on > your machine to hack into. Most desktop Windows systems are not running a telnet/FTP/SSH/HTTP/whatever server. As a result they are for all practical purposes never hacked. They get frequently virus'es, occasionally trojan horses and sometimes worms. It is estimate that 10-50 million PC'es are infected with malware. But I can not even remember having heard about a desktop Windows box being hacked. It probably has happened though. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:05:44 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: scripting a telnet session to VMS Message-ID: <48016a74$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> pfaut wrote: > On Mar 27, 6:10 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> The market of systems capable of running C# apps is big enough for >> some people (100 million PC's today, 500 million PC's in 5 year). > > Not if current Vista sales are any indication (but I digress...) ???? They sold 100 million copies in 2007. 5 x 100 million are actually 500 million. So if current Vista sales are an indication it will be so. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:08:15 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture Message-ID: <48016b0b$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: >> Agreed. About 5 years back while I was porting some code from VAX to >> Alpha, I ran into a bunch of custom DEC-C functions which were mapped >> onto VAX instructions. A very clever programmer was able to squeeze a >> few more drops of performance out of an underpowered VAX box, and he >> probably received a cool bonus for pulling this off, but he should not >> have done this. >> > > Of course he should have done it! It's what he was paid to do. It > justifies his existence! No - developers are (or should be) paid to produce readable and maintainable code - not to demonstrate their wizard capabilities. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:16:19 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture Message-ID: <3sqdnTC49IGH5pzVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@comcast.com> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> Neil Rieck wrote: >>> Agreed. About 5 years back while I was porting some code from VAX to >>> Alpha, I ran into a bunch of custom DEC-C functions which were mapped >>> onto VAX instructions. A very clever programmer was able to squeeze a >>> few more drops of performance out of an underpowered VAX box, and he >>> probably received a cool bonus for pulling this off, but he should not >>> have done this. >>> >> >> Of course he should have done it! It's what he was paid to do. It >> justifies his existence! > > No - developers are (or should be) paid to produce readable and > maintainable code - not to demonstrate their wizard capabilities. > It depends, strongly, on what is needed. In this case better performance was needed without upgrading the hardware. That sort of hand optimization is rarely done now but in years gone by, programmers earned their money by doing that sort of thing. There was NO SUCH THING as faster hardware unless you were willing to wait a few years for it to be developed! Things are different now. I have more computing power, and disk storage, at my disposal today and in my own home, than Princeton University had thirty years ago. Today's hardware is massively improved over the hardware of thirty years ago. Today's compilers are much better at optimization than programmers are. I've never had any objection to hand optimized code. If it's done, it needs to be documented because someone will have to maintain it. It's largely a dead issue now. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:12:36 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture Message-ID: <847d1$48018798$cef8887a$27016@TEKSAVVY.COM> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > No - developers are (or should be) paid to produce readable and > maintainable code - not to demonstrate their wizard capabilities. In what universe/century do you live in ? When you look at web developpers, it is very clear that they are paid to demonstrate their capabilities to use every possible overly complex trick to simulate a very simple HTML functions (such as the submit button that is all to often overriden by some complex javascript). ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.206 ************************