INFO-VAX Sat, 28 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 231 Contents: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Re: Free used AlphaServers Fun with Messages (was Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion.) Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Microvax II Disgnostics Re: Microvax II Disgnostics Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory PL/I, COBOL, BASIC, Fortran, Pascal, MACRO, Bliss, hell even C Re: SET Security question Re: SET Security question Re: SET Security question Re: SET Security question Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] Difference between LAD0: and DAD0:? Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] Difference between LAD0: and DAD0:? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:02:28 -0400 From: "Ray" Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: > HP's server kept timing out on me when I attempted to access that > manual. It's not clear how anything in it could address basic Superdome > memory access latency anyway, though: why do you think it might? > > (The new Superdomes - and small HP Itanic systems as well - do have > somewhat better access latency and bandwidth than the originals, but > they've been available for close to a year now, so that's nothing new.) I suggest you check out the available results for the McCalpin STREAM memory bandwidth benchmark. Everything you need to know about STREAM and available results can be found starting here: http://www.streambench.org/ Among others, there are Superdome, Integrity and Alpha results. You can run the benchmark yourself should you want to. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:24:24 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: Ray wrote: >> HP's server kept timing out on me when I attempted to access that >> manual. It's not clear how anything in it could address basic Superdome >> memory access latency anyway, though: why do you think it might? >> >> (The new Superdomes - and small HP Itanic systems as well - do have >> somewhat better access latency and bandwidth than the originals, but >> they've been available for close to a year now, so that's nothing new.) > > I suggest you check out the available results for the McCalpin STREAM memory > bandwidth benchmark. I'm already sufficiently familiar with the STREAM benchmark to know that it won't tell me a damn thing about memory *latency*. The new Superdome bandwidth results are a cut above the old ones, but nothing really dramatic. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:29:17 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: In article , "Dave Weatherall" wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:03:39 UTC, JF Mezei > wrote: > > > John Smith wrote: > > >> OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV > > >> base. > > > > > > Hey Mr "John Smith"... welcome back ! > > > > And I see we use the same ISP :-) > > Ah but is it the same one :) Who else would have that sig line? > Welcome back John. Was wondering about you just the other week. Ditto. Welcome back John. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:42:11 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:29:17 -0700, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > "Dave Weatherall" wrote: > >> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:03:39 UTC, JF Mezei >> wrote: >> >> > John Smith wrote: >> > >> OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling >> ISV >> > >> base. >> > >> > >> > Hey Mr "John Smith"... welcome back ! >> > >> > And I see we use the same ISP :-) >> >> Ah but is it the same one :) > > Who else would have that sig line? > >> Welcome back John. Was wondering about you just the other week. > > Ditto. Welcome back John. > I would guess that John's real first name has 'a' for the second letter -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:13:18 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Message-ID: <4632ad83$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> jrandrew@hotmail.com wrote: > I would like to implement web services and I know that Apache Axis > provides easy ways to do this. > > I've done some looking through the website that you sent regarding > WASD and I can't see analogous utilities for web services. Any > suggestions? Apache Axis or at least the Java version runs in Apache Tomcat servlet container not in Apache HTTP-server. It is common to run Apache HTTP-server in from of Tomcat, but you don't need to. And the Axis C/C++ version is not widely used. > I want to use web services (i.e. SOA-style) to pass calls through to > some compiled COBOL programs which will in turn access flat files on > the VMS system. I'm open to alternate ways to do this if there are > suggestions, but it would be nice to stay with using the COBOL to > actually access the datafiles (particularly for writes) because that > way a minimum of training and changes are required to staff to > implement the actual data changes. It's also less risky in terms of > possible corruption of data. One possibility would be to use BridgeWorks. --(SOAP/HTTP)--Tomcat+Axis+BW client--(DCE)--BW server--COBOL--files It is a long chain but you should be able to get do with minimal coding. The web service can reside on VMS or on another box as you prefer because DCE is a remote call. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:29:53 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Message-ID: G'day Arne, > --(SOAP/HTTP)--Tomcat+Axis+BW client--(DCE)--BW server--COBOL--files I rest my case. Cheers Richard Maher PS. Maybe you coulda speed things up a little bit with some additional CGI, ASP, JSP, JDBC, JSON, AJAX and a really good garbage collector of JavaBeans in your JVM? (Or you could write VMS code; it's up to you) PPS. Is BridgeWorks going to Itanium now? "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:4632ad83$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > jrandrew@hotmail.com wrote: > > I would like to implement web services and I know that Apache Axis > > provides easy ways to do this. > > > > I've done some looking through the website that you sent regarding > > WASD and I can't see analogous utilities for web services. Any > > suggestions? > > Apache Axis or at least the Java version runs in Apache Tomcat > servlet container not in Apache HTTP-server. > > It is common to run Apache HTTP-server in from of Tomcat, but > you don't need to. > > And the Axis C/C++ version is not widely used. > > > I want to use web services (i.e. SOA-style) to pass calls through to > > some compiled COBOL programs which will in turn access flat files on > > the VMS system. I'm open to alternate ways to do this if there are > > suggestions, but it would be nice to stay with using the COBOL to > > actually access the datafiles (particularly for writes) because that > > way a minimum of training and changes are required to staff to > > implement the actual data changes. It's also less risky in terms of > > possible corruption of data. > > One possibility would be to use BridgeWorks. > > --(SOAP/HTTP)--Tomcat+Axis+BW client--(DCE)--BW server--COBOL--files > > It is a long chain but you should be able to get do with minimal > coding. > > The web service can reside on VMS or on another box as you prefer > because DCE is a remote call. > > Arne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:07:38 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Free used AlphaServers Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote in news:46315C41.A4128C6@spam.comcast.net: > Tad Winters wrote: >> >> Please email me if you'd like a free, used AlphaServer _and_ you are >> able to pick it up in Orange, California. The AlphaServers were >> working fine, but the disk drives had to be removed and destroyed in >> accordance with corporate policy. These are pedestal systems and at >> lease a couple of them have video adapters so they will run DEC >> Windows. > > A few more specifics, please? > > Model? > > CPU speed? > > RAM size? > > SCSI / FC HBAs present in each? > > NICs present in each? > > Any CD, DVD or tape drives present in each? > AlphaServer 1200 5/400 and AlphaServer 1000 4/266 (or pretty close) about 512 MB each 3 channel (or possibly 1 channel) RAID controller DE500 in at least 1, with the other possibly a DE435. CD ROM drive in each. They tape drive may have been removed. Keep in mind that I'm not in the same location as these systems, else I'd haul them home myself and arrange to put these in people's hands. If I can't get someone to pick them up, they'll just be sent to a local recycler. (I previously worked for the company that has these systems, but I don't now work for them and I am not compensated for these efforts. I'm doing this merely to enlarge the hobbyist community. If I'm successful in this effort, I'm more likely to have other offices let me find a taker for their systems.) Tad ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 15:12:43 -0700 From: Peter Weaver Subject: Fun with Messages (was Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion.) Message-ID: <1177711962.864747.310130@s33g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 24, 9:36 am, Baxt...@tessco.com wrote: >... > I know that I can get rid of these messages by doing a > conditional delete (i.e. if f$search("filename") .nes. "") or by > turning off messaging, however the first option requires a lot of > extra code to do the condition checking, and the second option is to > generic. >... Third option is to modify the messages you don't care about; .FACILITY RMS,1/SYSTEM .FACILITY DELETE,147/SYSTEM .FACILITY PURGE,148/SYSTEM .BASE 82 FNF /ERROR .FACILITY SYSTEM,0/PREFIX=SS$_/SHARED/SYSTEM/MACRO= $SSDEF .BASE 581 NOFILPURG /INFORMATIONAL .BASE 583 SEARCHFAIL /FAO=1/ WARNING .end or option 4 .FACILITY RMS,1/SYSTEM .FACILITY DELETE,147/SYSTEM .FACILITY PURGE,148/SYSTEM .BASE 82 FNF <>/ERROR .FACILITY SYSTEM,0/PREFIX=SS$_/SHARED/SYSTEM/MACRO= $SSDEF .BASE 581 NOFILPURG <>/INFORMATIONAL .BASE 583 SEARCHFAIL <>/FAO=1/WARNING .end then turn off the facility, ident and severity but leave the text enabled. These three messages will then print nothing at all while other errors will show you the text. $ puge x.x ! Standard Message %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, no files purged $ set message /nofac/nosever/noident/text $ pur x.x ! Text only No files purged $ set mess /fac/sever/ident dave3 $ pur x.x ! Dave's Custom message which can be ignored by his error checking job %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, Ignore this error, Dave doesn't care $ set mess dave4 /nofac/nosever/noident/text $ pur x.x ! no Message because the text is blank $ set message /fac/sever/ident/text dave3 $ delete thisfileisnothere.*;* %NONAME-W-SEARCHFAIL, Ignore this error, Dave doesn't care thisfileisnothere.*;* -RMS-E-FNF, Ignore this error, Dave doesn't care $ set message /nofac/nosever/noident/text dave4 $ delete thisfileisnothere.*;* $ Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial Hardware ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:14:44 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: Mark Daniel wrote: > > Application mainly doing network and file I/O, along with some internal > processing. Approx two minutes duration. > > SDA> LOAD FLT > SDA> FLT START TRACE > [do some processing] > SDA> FLT STOP TRACE > SDA> FTL SHOW TRACE /SUMM > > Edited results ... > > Exception PC Count Exception PC > 00000000.00147CB0 20520 SDA$SHARE+00147CB0 SDA$SHARE > 00000000.00147990 19980 SDA$SHARE+00147990 > 00000000.001A61D0 9810 SDA$SHARE+001A61D0 > 00000000.001AB2F0 2978 SDA$SHARE+001AB2F0 > 00000000.001AB2F1 2978 SDA$SHARE+001AB2F1 The exception PC symbolization is comes out with SDA$SHARE+xxxxxxx since you are in SDA. Look at the SHOW TRACE without the /SUMMARY. Find one of the lines with 147CB0 and find the process index. Now do a SET PROC/INDEX with that number and repeat the SHOW TRACE/SUMMARY. The symbolization will be more informative. To figure out the image that the process is running, you can do things like: SHOW PROC/CHANNEL SHOW PROC/IMAGE Once you have the image name that the process is running, the symbolization plus the .MAP; plus the .LIS, should eventually point you to the right place. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:59:29 -0600 From: "news.hp.com" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > However, the inability to get data into and out of the CPU faster than Alpha > reduces the overall net performance to lower than Alpha. While the EV7-based systems excelled in this area, memory access latency is only one small piece of the overall performance of a system. Clock rates, cache latency and locality of reference, number of cores -- all these and many other factors are involved. In the past one was able to say with confidence that Alpha and Itanium performance in general was approximately equal, with Alpha faster on some things and Itanium faster on others. With Montecito, the balance has now tipped in favor of Integrity Servers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:08:49 -0600 From: "news.hp.com" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Do you really think it makes sense for Intel to continue to spend > billions developping IA64 when its 64 bit 8086 provides performance that > is on par We have a number of customers who run Oracle on Linux and could choose either x86 or Itanium, and after benchmarking they choose Itanium because either it has higher performance with the same number of cores or else they can purchase fewer cores with Itanium (and save a bundle on Oracle licenses) and get the same performance at a better price (for exanmple, in one user benchmark I saw the results for, a 6-core Itanium box outperformed an 8-core x86 box). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:10:34 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: news.hp.com wrote: ... > In the past one was able to say with confidence that Alpha and Itanium > performance in general was approximately equal, with Alpha faster on > some things and Itanium faster on others. With Montecito, the balance > has now tipped in favor of Integrity Servers. Wow - and it only took them 2 full process generations and over 3.5 years of additional development after Alpha's development stopped to do it! That's leadership for ya! - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:23:36 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: news.hp.com wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Do you really think it makes sense for Intel to continue to spend >> billions developping IA64 when its 64 bit 8086 provides performance >> that is on par > > We have a number of customers who run Oracle on Linux and could choose > either x86 or Itanium, and after benchmarking they choose Itanium > because either it has higher performance with the same number of cores > or else they can purchase fewer cores with Itanium (and save a bundle on > Oracle licenses) and get the same performance at a better price (for > exanmple, in one user benchmark I saw the results for, a 6-core Itanium > box outperformed an 8-core x86 box). You neglected to state whether the x86 box was running Woodcrests or other new-generation Xeons, but I suspect I can guess the answer to that. In fact, I suspect that relatively few customers would make the choice that you describe above in today's environment - though the lack of a really competitive x86 quad-socket-and-up chipset like IBM's S3 'Hurricane' might be a drawback for HP's x86 offerings in such face-offs, and you may not get to see some of the Linux customers who go to IBM as a result. - bill ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 12:58:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >> > Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack of > PL/I and that is about 230 systems. HP thinks like the PC company Carly tried to make it into. 230 systems is about $2.30 worth of profit until someone wakes you up to the profit margin of real computers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:45:21 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:58:36 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: >>> >> Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack >> of >> PL/I and that is about 230 systems. > > HP thinks like the PC company Carly tried to make it into. 230 > systems is about $2.30 worth of profit until someone wakes you > up to the profit margin of real computers. > and VMS has about a 20% margin! -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 15:15:04 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177712104.306257.164720@o40g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 27, 9:57 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1177666922.680728.246...@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > Andrew writes: > > > > > My > > guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do > > this on Itanium. > > Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into consideration > the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? > This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated > and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. wait a minute ... we were told by all these big vms partners that they were convinced that hp was doing the right thing by going to itanium with vms ... they gave their approval, and without that vms on itanium would have never happened ... they are as much to blame as hp ... ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 15:17:48 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177712267.954402.321900@s33g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 27, 10:41 am, Dave Froble wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: > > I've also been told by the ISVs that HP has come to them - at the > > prompting of the OpenVMS user base - pushing Itanium and UX, not > > OpenVMS. > > Now that is an interesting statement. Has HP actually mentioned the > name of one VMS customer that has made this request? I'm thinking that > they would have a hard time coming up with even one name. who in the heck would ever pick unix over vms? that is a blatent lie or blatent stupidity, one of the two ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:45:50 -0700 From: "Malcolm Dunnett" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <46327ca8$1@flight> "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:59enm7F2kdk9rU1@mid.individual.net... > > So then, what is the reason? Tom says, "No access to GEM". Isn't that > HP's? So, knowing it will cost them major accounts like VW and Fiat, > what reason could they have for not pushing for an Itanium PL/I compiler? > Is it that HP isn't "pushing" for a PL/I compiler or is it that Tom's group wants to build one but HP is refusing them access to the GEM technology and they rely on that? (Did they use GEM to backend the Alpha PL/I compiler?) Have VW or Fiat ever tried saying flat out to a senior HP exec that if they can't get a PL/I compiler for Itanium they will not be buying any servers from HP, PERIOD! (sorry folks, it's hard to read between all the lines here) OT: On the other hand I had a call today from an HP inside sales rep who asked what kind of servers we had - I replied Alphas and Itaniums, all of them from HP. She then proceeded to try to sell me on a blade server solution. Having heard talk about VMS possibly being offered on an Itanium blade I said "sure, send me the information". When it arrived it was all about a XEON based server! If HP can't train their sales reps to understand the different kinds of servers HP sells and what markets they are appropriate for they probably can't comprehend that a PL/I compiler is a valuable tool ( what part of the MSOffice suite was that again? ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:34:59 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" wrote: >On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:57:10 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >wrote: > >> >> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of >> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough >> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >> the compiler? Same justification Cerner is probably using for their >> decision. And does HP management care enough to do anything about it. >> Sorry, rhetorical question. > >There is plenty of business, and it doesn't cost HP anything for us to >hook up the compiler to a later version of GEM, other than business acumen. HP doesn't have a PL/I front-end available. Are you offering HP the Kednos front-end free of charge? Or is this an alternate meaning for the word "free"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:36:21 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: In article <59eoo3F2kdk9rU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu wrote: >WHy, precisely, is PL/I not being ported to Itanium VMS? Too much >work? No percieved return on investment? Technically impossible? >(The last one only added for completeness, I know that isn't the case!) I think it's safe to say the precise reasons aren't amenable to a discussion in a public forum. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:30:24 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > Ada uses the gnu backend. PL/I is often used in conjunction with other > languages like fortran and cobol and having the ability to run a common > debugger is invaluable. Using gnu would preclude that. The AdaCore compilers on OpenVMS I64 uses the OpenVMS Symbolic Debugger as the other compilers due to the fact that we switched to DWARF. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:35:21 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: Robert Deininger wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > wrote: > >> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:57:10 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >> wrote: >> > >>> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of >>> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough >>> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >>> the compiler? Same justification Cerner is probably using for their >>> decision. And does HP management care enough to do anything about it. >>> Sorry, rhetorical question. >> There is plenty of business, and it doesn't cost HP anything for us to >> hook up the compiler to a later version of GEM, other than business acumen. > > HP doesn't have a PL/I front-end available. > > Are you offering HP the Kednos front-end free of charge? > > Or is this an alternate meaning for the word "free"? I think what he's been saying for some time now is that if HP would give/sell/lease/whatever him a license for the current GEM backend, that he'd be able to offer a PL/I product for the itanic. This would seem to be in HP's best interest. Well, if they want any success for VMS. While the request seems reasonable, and I see no downside for HP, I'm also aware that there are a 'minimum' of two sides to every story. What your post has me questioning is how HP views VMS. Will HP now sell a VMS related product only if someone gives them, free of charge, that product? Has VMS sunk so low? I normally respect your posts and opinions, but this is a particular obscene post you have made. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 21:59:07 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Microvax II Disgnostics Message-ID: In article <2MC9$wgaBgEk@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > JF Mezei wrote: > > > >> Well, I was one handed an RD53 from someone using PDP11s and I was able > >> to format it. But it was a DEC RD53 drive. > > > > Exactly. If it hasn't already been formated as a DEC drive, you need one of > > the three following solutions. VAXstation/server 2000 (mine has bad RAM, > > but last I checked could still format the drive), Field Service (not > > Customer) MV II Diag Tape, or the right XXDP test on a PDP-11. > > I think for at least some media low level formatting was built into > the INTIALIZE utility. I'm pretty sure for 3½ inch floppies its in > there, but possibly not for RD53. The VAXstation/server 2000 had a console command for formatting RD5* disks :- TEST nn (where I have forgotten the value of nn, but it was well documented). -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:12:31 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Microvax II Disgnostics Message-ID: <07042715123104_202002DA@antinode.org> From: "P. Sture" > The VAXstation/server 2000 had a console command for formatting RD5* > disks :- > > TEST nn > > (where I have forgotten the value of nn, but it was well documented). Pay closer attention: Return-Path: Info-VAX-Request@mvb.saic.com Received: from mvb.saic.com (198.151.12.104) by alp.antinode.org (V5.4-15G, OpenVMS V7.3-2 Alpha); Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:20:21 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode-org (Steven M. Schweda) [...] For the record, the firmware ("TEST 70") in a working MicroVAX 2000 or VAXstation 2000 is the other popular tool for formatting these drives. [...] RD%% and RX%%, not just RD5%. For additional info, consider: http://antinode.org/dec/vs2000_diag.html and nearby items. (There was a VAX_server_ 2000?) I'm still looking for an incredible bargain on a 12MB memory board (or two) for mine, by the way. (Trade for a VT100 advanced video card?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 13:01:28 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: In article , Bill Todd writes: > Dan O'Reilly wrote: > > ... > >> I'll tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what they're doing. > > As with most generalizations, that's flat-out wrong. And they're kids. At an age when they have an intrinsic sureness that they themselves are indestructable. I know some such youngsters, I believe they are heros, and I wish them all the best of luck, by I won't give any such honor to the fellow who's sending them. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 13:09:03 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: In article <4631d29d$0$16261$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, "Neil Rieck" writes: > > What ever your political beliefs, we now know that the governments and > general population of both Afghanistan and Iraq had nothing to do with the > 9/11 attack on New York. After all, 16 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi > nationals. The general population of both, yes. The government of Iraq, agreed. But the government of Afghanistan at the time was the Taliban, they were friendly with Al-Queda and hostile to all attempts to root them out. I don't care what the legal citizenship of the hijackers were at the time, they were Al-Queda. Which is why the whole world supported the US and many went in as allies when we invaded Afghanistan. A level of support and cooperation Bush and his cronies tossed aside carelessly in thier egotistical incompetence. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:49:58 -0400 From: Glenn Everhart Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <1335dl198h6q28a@corp.supernews.com> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , Dirk Munk writes: > >> No wonder. Rumsfeld & Cheney c.s. do know how to destroy things with > > Please do not feed off-topic posts. What makes you think George Bush is a conservative? A traditionalist in some ways, maybe. I suppose there are those who imagine a monarchist would be "conservative" but IMO it matches American political thought badly. Clearly he is a statist, not a libertarian. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:16:24 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: In article <1177421789.318012.262500@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, BaxterD@tessco.com writes: > What would be really nice would be a qualifier which would allow > this to be turned of selectively, and stop the program from generating > the messages. I am thinking of something like > > $ Delete/Suppress To follow the lead set by SEARCH: /NOWARNINGS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:40:46 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: Joseph Huber wrote: > like /SUCCESS_ALWAYS. > Who does really want that ? > DCL provides a (THE) clean way via SET MESSAGE or an "if f$search..." > clause, > and not using it is no excuse for programmer lazyness ! No, What the original poster wanted (if I remember correctly is: $DELETE/DON'T_WARN_ME_IF_WILDCARD_FINDS_NO_FILES This is quite different from a /SUCCESS_ALWAYS. I.E. you want real error messages (file can't be deleted due to protection violation, or file in use or other "hard" errors), but don't want error messages indicating that no files were deleted. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:09:54 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: In article , "Dave Weatherall" wrote: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:18:56 UTC, John Santos wrote: > > > Farrell, Michael wrote: > > > There is a "DEL/NOLOG ". > > > > > > We use it all the time. > > > > $ del/nolog dhdjjshhdskh.sdhhsj;* > > %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for > > $1$DIA20:[JOHN]DHDJJSHHDSKH.SDHHSJ;* > > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > > AHA! Now I remember. That's _exactly_ the one that :- > > $ message_save = f$environment ("message") > $ set mess /nofac /notext /nosev/noid > $ delete stuff > $ ! optional status checking to catch _unexpected_ errors > $ set mess 'message_save' > > was meant to suppress while I was tidying up. In the case when the > temp files hadn't been created. Given that the OP mentioned several hundred files, I'd put the above into a subroutine. But coming at it from a different angle, I'd prefer to have a log of the file deletion handy for problem analysis. Disk and logical names change over time. I don't know if this is feasible without seeing the command procedures concerned and having knowledge of disk space constraints, but maintaining a sequential file containing the files to be cleaned up might be easier than putting extensive modifications into the procedures themselves. IOW, move the "noise" out of that procedure to somewhere it can be dealt with separateLY. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:11:03 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei wrote: > Joseph Huber wrote: > > like /SUCCESS_ALWAYS. > > Who does really want that ? > > DCL provides a (THE) clean way via SET MESSAGE or an "if f$search..." > > clause, > > and not using it is no excuse for programmer lazyness ! > > > No, What the original poster wanted (if I remember correctly is: > > $DELETE/DON'T_WARN_ME_IF_WILDCARD_FINDS_NO_FILES > > This is quite different from a /SUCCESS_ALWAYS. > > I.E. you want real error messages (file can't be deleted due to > protection violation, or file in use or other "hard" errors), but don't > want error messages indicating that no files were deleted. Indeed. I want to see _those_ error messages. They could after all contain early warnings of disk errors. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 00:06:35 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Subject: Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Message-ID: <87irbhx0ms.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Jeff Cameron writes: > Another question from the Roaming Paleocybernetic Administrator, > Now that I have my memory pool problems behind me, I have another task to > which I need to solicit the help from all of you wonderful folks with > PDP-11/RSX experience. > I have a task to write a program to make small changes to a binary table > stored in an RMS fixed record, sequential access file on a PDP-11 Running > RSX-11M-Plus V4.6. How big is the table? Is it fixed size? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:04:48 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: PL/I, COBOL, BASIC, Fortran, Pascal, MACRO, Bliss, hell even C Message-ID: Hi Tom, > I have on my agendum (notice correct use of singular) I had to look that up, and am still suprized. > to do the same for PL/I, I should point out that although this particular server example is in COBOL, there is no restriction on the use of any language for the six User Action Routines. As long as it can adhere to the VMS procedure calling standard and is capable of being compiled/linked into a VMS shareable image then it can be a server. If you Fortran guys want to user your COMMONs for interprocess communication, or create your Global Sections on the fly then go for it! - Mailboxes? Spawning subprocesses? Then no problem - go crazy! - Rdb, RMS, Oracle? Why not? - Server affinity? Under your control. - lib$*_vm? Of course! We don't want to hide VMS from you, your coders, or your users, like it was some dodgy relative you're too embarassed about; we want you to continue revel in its beauty, functionality, and stability! (I for one have had enough of the VMS-appologists from HP talking about affinity with this product or that operating system, and how you have to wrapper your "legacy" code up in a mini-skirt and a thong 'cos dignity and integrity are no longer fashionable.) I don't know in which animal one would find the inherent skills, talent and anatomical attributes that best reflect the strengths of VMS in the IT domain (it's certainly a reliable work horse, and there's always JF's shark) but one thing's for sure, Richard Maher is never gonna try to stick flippers on it, strap a rubber bill to its head and tell it to quack like a fucking duck! Do whatever you like on the client; on the server we're 100% VMS! (And *proud* of it) Cheers Richard Maher "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.trez0rb0tte90l@hyrrokkin... On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:21:47 -0700, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Josh, > >> I'm open to alternate ways to do this if there are >> suggestions, but it would be nice to stay with using the COBOL to >> actually access the datafiles (particularly for writes) because that >> way a minimum of training and changes are required to staff to >> implement the actual data changes. > > There has been recent discussion in HP's ITRC forum about a similar COBOL > requirement and IMO you could do a lot worse than to read, fully, my > replies > to each of the following threads. (Currently the last replies in each > thread) > > http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1110572 > http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1095466 > > The attachment to the first reply contains all the JavaScript and HTML > needed to put a browser-based GUI front-end on a VMS COBOL Queue > Management > example application. The attachment to the second reply contains *ALL* of > the code that your application development staff would need to supply on > the > server side. Just six User Action Routines in the form of a Shareable > Image, > is all you have to provide for any VMS server application. (Whether you > want > to talk to it via a Browser, .NET, Java, another VMS box, or even using > DECnet as a transport) > > Your COBOL does not change - Your server development tools do not change. > You code is informed of the VMS username on whose behalf a request is > being > made, and a matching Persona is made available for you if needed. You > get a > full-duplex, conversational pipe with which to communicate with your > client, > and server affinity is completely under your control. All > network-connection > management, multi-threading, and server-process load-balancing is done > for > you. > > Anyway, If you'd like to see what it looks like in action (and especially > how easy a platform it is to develop on) then send me an e-mail. > > Cheers Richard Maher I have on my agendum (notice correct use of singular) to do the same for PL/I, but we are going one step further by generating Java object classes (through the good offices of SDL) for PL/I entry declarations, thus faciltating canning (i.e., jar-ing) legacy apps. The same could be done for Cobol. > > wrote in message > news:1177626898.793493.72190@r35g2000prh.googlegroups.com... >> I would like to implement web services and I know that Apache Axis >> provides easy ways to do this. >> >> I've done some looking through the website that you sent regarding >> WASD and I can't see analogous utilities for web services. Any >> suggestions? >> >> I want to use web services (i.e. SOA-style) to pass calls through to >> some compiled COBOL programs which will in turn access flat files on >> the VMS system. I'm open to alternate ways to do this if there are >> suggestions, but it would be nice to stay with using the COBOL to >> actually access the datafiles (particularly for writes) because that >> way a minimum of training and changes are required to staff to >> implement the actual data changes. It's also less risky in terms of >> possible corruption of data. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Josh >> > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:32:54 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: SET Security question Message-ID: <3pednW2TCtYI5K_bnZ2dnUVZ_vninZ2d@libcom.com> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <462f6e3d$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik writes: >> norm.raphael@metso.com schrieb: >> >>> Protection codes notwithstanding, If a process has READALL, I believe it >>> will be able to read the file, and if it has BYPASS .... >> Yes, I know about those two - just like unix where you can't protect >> anything from the root user. > > In suggesting 800-53 security assessment policies, I recommend looking > with skepticism on any files protected against SYSTEM access, as likely > being an indication that somebody does not understand how things work. I will second that. For what reason would the file be protected from system access? -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:46:03 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: SET Security question Message-ID: <46328B3B.9040103@comcast.net> Dave Froble wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >> In article <462f6e3d$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik >> writes: >> >>> norm.raphael@metso.com schrieb: >>> >>>> Protection codes notwithstanding, If a process has READALL, I >>>> believe it >>>> will be able to read the file, and if it has BYPASS .... >>> >>> Yes, I know about those two - just like unix where you can't protect >>> anything from the root user. >> >> >> In suggesting 800-53 security assessment policies, I recommend looking >> with skepticism on any files protected against SYSTEM access, as likely >> being an indication that somebody does not understand how things work. > > > I will second that. For what reason would the file be protected from > system access? > Is there ANY way a file can be protected against system? Other than encrypting it? I was taught that "there is no defense against privilege"! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:10:13 -0400 From: Glenn Everhart Subject: Re: SET Security question Message-ID: <1335er0db6j9t45@corp.supernews.com> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> >>> In article <462f6e3d$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik >>> writes: >>> >>>> norm.raphael@metso.com schrieb: >>>> >>>>> Protection codes notwithstanding, If a process has READALL, I >>>>> believe it >>>>> will be able to read the file, and if it has BYPASS .... >>>> >>>> Yes, I know about those two - just like unix where you can't protect >>>> anything from the root user. >>> >>> >>> In suggesting 800-53 security assessment policies, I recommend looking >>> with skepticism on any files protected against SYSTEM access, as likely >>> being an indication that somebody does not understand how things work. >> >> >> I will second that. For what reason would the file be protected from >> system access? >> > Is there ANY way a file can be protected against system? Other than > encrypting it? > I was taught that "there is no defense against privilege"! > > > Even with a subsystem that might regulate what privileged accounts can do, you must consider that a suitably privileged person might turn off the extra subsystem. (In fact it is hard to convince anyone to install such without knowing it can be removed. Such systems that are not removable might exist, but VMS fortunately has little spyware being used on it. Again if for example you put your file-to-be-protected on a cryptodisk, the driver and system can impose various protections to make it difficult to get at the data while the cryptodisk is mounted. While the cryptodisk is NOT mounted you indeed have protection. (That is what cryptodisks were first invented for, and it does work.) However, if the computer is able to decrypt the data, someone with suitable access can with enough work find what it is doing and duplicate it. The best that can be done there is to make it difficult to get at the data-to-be-protected. Note further that this kind of system does shade into a sound protection system as more and more avenues for exploiting are recognized and blocked. (At some point it becomes easier to use rubber-hose cryptanalysis.) The recent efforts to build "trusted computing" hardware are attempts to keep the processor from being able to get at secrets. Here though the issue of loading and storing secrets gets in the way. Where there are commands built in to allow dumping of secrets, the whole structure can be made to collapse. (Such have been reported.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:44:36 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: SET Security question Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> >>> In article <462f6e3d$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik >>> writes: >>> >>>> norm.raphael@metso.com schrieb: >>>> >>>>> Protection codes notwithstanding, If a process has READALL, I >>>>> believe it >>>>> will be able to read the file, and if it has BYPASS .... >>>> >>>> Yes, I know about those two - just like unix where you can't protect >>>> anything from the root user. >>> >>> >>> In suggesting 800-53 security assessment policies, I recommend looking >>> with skepticism on any files protected against SYSTEM access, as likely >>> being an indication that somebody does not understand how things work. >> >> >> I will second that. For what reason would the file be protected from >> system access? >> > Is there ANY way a file can be protected against system? Other than > encrypting it? > I was taught that "there is no defense against privilege"! > > > In this case, it's SYSPRV that would allow access to files using the SYSTEM masks. With BYPASS, you would be correct. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 00:08:55 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Message-ID: In article , Tad Winters wrote: > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in > news:lawwDA6myWt0@eisner.encompasserve.org: > > > In article , Tad > > Winters writes: > >> > >> I believe it's caused by setting the width. > > > > Note that the screen clears even when the width setting is already > > correct. Typically I log on with a width of 80, the default > > terminal characteristic is 80, and the /width=80 clears the screen. > > > > I thought about looking to see if the width was not changing and > > leaving out /width in those cases, but since all my users tend to > > log in with 80 and I have DCL keypad keys defined to quickly change > > the width it never seemed worth the effort. > > > > I believe it's a function of the terminal itself. When it receives the > sequence for setting 80 column mode: > CSI ? 3 l > or 132 column mode: > CSI ? 3 h > it clears the screen. It's probably been maintained by newer terminals and > emulators because the early terminals had that behavior. I'd guess the > original terminals were like that for technical/economic reasons. If the > Wyse terminals can make that optional, others could as well. If it was an > option in any of the terminal emulators I've used, I would have set it. I believe this goes back to VT100 days. Without the VT100 Advanced Video Option (AVO), 132 column mode only displayed 12 lines, so clearing the screen on a width change was a sensible thing to do. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:30:38 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Subject: Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] Difference between LAD0: and DAD0:? Message-ID: <87mz0tx2ap.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > With the old InfoServer support files contained in VMS one had to > start > $ @SYS$STARTUP:ESS$STARTUP DISK, TAPE > to get a DAD0: (disk) and a MAD0: (tape) template device. > With it it was then possible to map a service to a local virtual > disk (DADx:) > eg. $ ladcp:==$LADCP > $ ladcp BIND/SYS ALPHA082 > $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/NOWRITE DAD$ALPHA082 ALPHA082 > But then came along (when?) a startup file > SYS$STARTUP:ESS$LAD_STARTUP.COM which essentially loads a LAD0: > template device/driver and issues the (undocumented) command > (controlled by a ESS$LAD_STARTUP.DAT config file) From old memory, LAD0: is a sort of port driver device, with the disk class driver, DAD and tape running over it. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 21:14:47 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] Difference between LAD0: and DAD0:? Message-ID: <463267c7@news.langstoeger.at> In article <87mz0tx2ap.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi writes: >From old memory, LAD0: is a sort of port driver device, with the >disk class driver, DAD and tape running over it. Would make sense. (LAD0 is a unknown device, while DAD is a disk device). But why is then no difference in loading LAD0 and don't loading it? As I wrote, you don't need to run ESS$LAD_STARTUP.COM (and loading LAD0) for getting/using DADx:/MADx: via ESS$STARTUP.COM... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.231 ************************