INFO-VAX Sun, 29 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 233 Contents: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Integrity Pearl Re: Integrity Pearl Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-basedservers Ita Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-basedservers Ita Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America OT: Congrats... Re: SET Security question Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:20:56 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: <4633BAB8.33836445@spam.comcast.net> Bill Todd wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > John Smith wrote: > >> http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3673346 > >> > >> Looks like we'll be going with something a bit more standard - Solaris and > >> Sybase IQ for the next 40+ TB warehouse I implement for a customer. They > >> feel FAR more certain of protection of their investment with what some would > >> say are two 'iffy' companies, than betting on VMS. > >> > >> Too bad. > > > > Hhmmm... Looks like HP may be trying to address the I64 memory access problem > > (slow in some large memory / many CPU configurations). > > > > It's probably too much to hope for, and much, much too late and many, many > > hundreds of billions of dollars short, but maybe the technology HP develops for > > Neoview (see the owner's manual via the link in the article) will trickle down > > into the OpenVMS space. > > HP's server kept timing out on me when I attempted to access that > manual. It's not clear how anything in it could address basic Superdome > memory access latency anyway, though: why do you think it might? The thought was that their selling a carefully pre-packaged hard-/software soltuion that works as advertised, but only under strict controls. Also, teh Tandem space tends to focus more on uptime and fault tolerance than pure performance at any cost. > (The new Superdomes - and small HP Itanic systems as well - do have > somewhat better access latency and bandwidth than the originals, but > they've been available for close to a year now, so that's nothing new.) Are they now better than Alpha? ...equal to, at least? I'm just going by the information being presented at the symposia by HP and former-HP folk. I respect the sources enough to trust that they have done their homework. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:23:07 GMT From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <%WOYh.9473$3P3.4292@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.trhyu1j9tte90l@hyrrokkin... > On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:04:02 -0700, Michael D. Ober > wrote: > >> >> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >> news:op.treapxtttte90l@hyrrokkin... >>> On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:39:38 -0700, Michael D. Ober >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >>>> news:op.trc7mhxatte90l@hyrrokkin... >>>>>>>> Actually, no. Many times you allocate memory but don't really know >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> last reference to it is released. This happens when a routine >>>>>>>> allocates >>>>>>>> memory and then returns that memory as part of it's result. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why can't the caller free the memory? >>>>>> >>>>>> What happens when the caller allocates memory for a node in a b-tree >>>>>> and >>>>>> then adds the node to the b-tree? This is a very, very simple >>>>>> example >>>>>> of >>>>>> why memory management without a garbage collector is prone to leaks >>>>>> and >>>>>> dangling pointers. >>>>> >>>>> I give, what happens and why? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> Very simply the code that allocates the node doesn't control when it >>>> will >>>> get used. If during processing of the tree, a reference to the node is >>>> created and handled by a different thread but the primary thread (the >>>> one >>>> processing the tree) deletes the node from the tree and then >>>> deallocates >>>> the >>>> memory, the second thread that is handling the actual node processing >>>> will >>>> either crash or have to handle a dangling pointer situation (the >>>> original >>>> node is gone and possible overwritten). Before you say this doesn't >>>> happen, >>>> it does. I have a program that for performance reasons has split the >>>> actual >>>> node processing apart from the node creation. The node creator creates >>>> nodes about 10 times as fast as they can be processed and puts them in >>>> a >>>> queue to be processed by another thread. I did this because there is a >>>> limited time window in which to gather the information required for the >>>> data >>>> collection, but the processing of the data can take as long as >>>> required. >>>> On >>>> top of this, there is a final pass that cleans up the target data area >>>> and >>>> it depends on the existence of the nodes created during data gathering. >>>> Thus there are two threads, running asynchronously that require the >>>> nodes be >>>> available. The order of node handling is non-deterministic, making it >>>> extremely difficult to predict when a node is no longer required. >>>> Having a >>>> Garbage Collector is the only real way to do this without cluttering >>>> the >>>> program with memory management code. >>> >>> But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? >>> Otherwise >>> how do you know when to run the garbage collector? >>> >> >> The GC runs whenever a memory allocation fails for insufficient memory. >> When it runs, it identifies all objects in memory that can be accessed >> directly or indirectly from the stacks and global data spaces (or in the >> case of a reference counting system, have a non-zero reference count) as >> well as all the pointers to those objects. The GC then moves the >> objects to >> the beginning of the heap, updating the pointers to the objects as it >> does >> so. At the end of the compaction, the memory allocation is then retried. >> If it fails this time, you must either call the OS to allocate more >> memory >> to the process, or return a failure to the calling program. Note that >> this >> is a very simple description of what happens during a GC pass and modern >> GC >> algorithms are far more sophisticated, but they all do essentially what I >> have just described. With a GC, you never have to explicitly free >> memory - >> you simply remove any references to objects when you are done with them. >> The downside of a GC is that you cannot deterministically predict program >> latency. The upside is that for the vast majority of applications, >> unpredictable program latency isn't an issue and the GC allows the >> programmer to focus on the problem being solved instead of dealing with >> heap >> memory management. > > You didn't answer my first question, which was... > But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? > > Actually, since I have to process each node multiple times and they are being processed by different threads, I don't really know ahead of time when the node will be available for reclamation. Even the number of times each node is processed is indeterminate - anywhere from 2 to 52 times per node. When each thread is done with the node, it simply removes it from it's local processing queue. Yes, I could reference count the node as I add and remove it to and from the trees and queues used by the program, but this would clutter the code with memory management features. Even the basic GC I described can handle this better and with less chance of error. >> >> Mike. >> >> > > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:12:40 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com (better known as boob) wrote: > > there is a company that has just came up with a > tatoo (mark) that be scanned from 15 foot away > and can be unique to you and store information > about you which can be quickly scanned ... > > so the verse in revelation about the 666 mark and > everyone who does not have it cannot buy or sell > meant there would be a tracking system (computer) ... Just how has an ID now become the '666 mark'? Last I looked at it, the US dollar makes the claim of being 'legal tender for all debts public and private'. > this is only possible now! Israel became a nation > again in 1948 ... the walls of the Soviet Union came > down in the late 80s and made possible the prophecy > that God would bring them back to Israel out of the > land of the north (Russia) and every other nation ... Not Lebanon? > world filled with violence ... Saxons and Visigoths and such invading the former Roman empire? > children disrespectful > to their elders ... it was ever thus > earthquakes in divers places and > more and more of them ... Actually, less and less of them. > how was that earthquake in southern England today > Andrew? > > wars and rumors of wars ... Jerusalem would be a > burdensome stone for the world ... So, nuke it and have done with the whole mess. > also men would travel to and fro which meant all > over the earth Another jump in (un)logic. I go to and fro to the toilet, in increasing frequency as I grow older. I'm going to be hurting if I have to travel the entire Earth for such needs. > and knowledge would be increased > greatly ... Yes, as it has done pretty much since your first ape ancestor picked up a rock. > did the romans have cars and planes? Do we have FTL starships? > was knowledge increasing exponentially like it > is now? Yes, but you don't appear to understand 'exponentially'. > there is a lot more that Revelation and Daniel and > Isaiah predict that has and is happening ... Yeah, and I've predicted that the sun would rise in the East many times, and I've been right, so I must be a prophet. > How could John have made up something that > Daniel and Isaiah confirmed parts of thousands > of years earlier? > > Instead of reading what others say like a mind > numbed robot, why don't you read and study > it and come to your own conclusions? Have done so. My conclusions don't match yours. What makes you so much more right than everyone else? > You talk about Christians being mind numbed > robots, My observations are than many 'born again christians' are people who want someone else to do their thinking for them, so they do not place themselves in a position that might raise doubts. > but it looks like you have the shoe on > the wrong foot ... I am not stupid ... Now, that is the most incorrect comment you've ever made. > I can read > and come to conclusions on my own ... I do > not need someone elses opinion who may be > wrong And your conclusions and opinions are never wrong? Not possibly even once? But the rest of the world is always wrong. Lead us O great boob out of our lives of utter incompetence and show us the true way. > and may have an agenda to understand > something ... people who do that are afraid of > finding the truth and want to accept someone > elses garbage as fact to try to make themselves > feel better when they know they may be wrong ... The only fear here is yours, that the afterlife you so want to exist, just might not exist, and you cannot handle such a thought. So you blather on, hoping to avoid your greatest fear. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 15:40:20 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Integrity Pearl Message-ID: <1177800020.796953.35930@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, Enclosed please find a pearl that I think you may find very useful, this is some of the OpenVMS on Integrity Servers information that I thought you would find useful. If you will please note the "with thanks from openvms.org" you will see several new ports to OpenVMS on IPF. Warm Regards, Sue With thanks to the HP OpenVMS Web site, obviously this is not all the information but I thought it was very interesting. If you only click on one link make it this one. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/announce/cust_statements.html OpenVMS on Blade Systems http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/cclass_support.html OpenVMS on Superdomes http://h20341.www2.hp.com/integrity/cache/342254-0-0-225-121.html HP Servers running OpenVMS http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/servers/byos/openvmsservers.html 16 page white paper about VMS and Virtualization http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-5801ENW.pdf If you are looking for a Partner to see if it is porting to Integrity check out this page http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/i64partner_a.html There is an A-Z list (its small) If you are a partner and your status is incorrect please let me know, it can be fixed. (I just did not ask permission to post folks email) Errata's http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/hardware.html --------------------------------------------- With thanks to www.openvms.org Ported to OpenVMS on IPF The Distributed Revision Control Management System, Mercurial, has been ported on OpenVMS IA64 (and AXP) Mercurial is a fast, lightweight Source Control Management system designed for efficient handling of very large distributed projects. For more information on Mercurial please see www.selenic.com/mercurial. ---------------- MoinMoin Wiki Engine has been ported to OpenVMS, AXP and IA64. for more information on MoinMoin please see moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de. The vmspython site has been changed to use MoinMoin. For more information on MoinMoin on OpenVMS please see vmspython.dyndns.org. ----------------- Webware for Python 0.9.3 is released on OpenVMS, AXP and IA64. www.w4py.org. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 16:32:47 -0700 From: Ian Miller Subject: Re: Integrity Pearl Message-ID: <1177803167.240449.5610@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> JFP has been busy as you can see from http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/04/28/9565595 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/04/28/0942498 Another good bit of OpenVMS I64 related information is the whitepaper "Quantifying the Total Cost of Upgrading HP OpenVMS AlphaServer systems to OpenVMS on HP Integrity servers" http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/04/25/0822955 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:07:27 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > Ada uses the gnu backend. PL/I is often used in conjunction with other > languages like fortran and cobol and having the ability to run a common > debugger is invaluable. Using gnu would preclude that. It is exceedingly > stupid to adapt PL/I to another backend which wouldn't be well integrated > into VMS, particularly when there is one that already supports PL/I and > requires very little effort to validate on Itanium. So, go figure. THANK YOU very much for that explanation. I had wondered for a long time what all the fuss was about with the PL/I issue. Now, another question: Who now owns/develops/controls GEM ? Does Intel have a say in it, or is it still very much an HP product ? or does HP still have the right the the Alpha GEM, but Intel has the IA64 one ? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:13:50 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:07:27 -0700, JF Mezei wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> Ada uses the gnu backend. PL/I is often used in conjunction with other >> languages like fortran and cobol and having the ability to run a common >> debugger is invaluable. Using gnu would preclude that. It is >> exceedingly >> stupid to adapt PL/I to another backend which wouldn't be well >> integrated >> into VMS, particularly when there is one that already supports PL/I and >> requires very little effort to validate on Itanium. So, go figure. > > > THANK YOU very much for that explanation. I had wondered for a long time > what all the fuss was about with the PL/I issue. > > Now, another question: > > Who now owns/develops/controls GEM ? Does Intel have a say in it, or is > it still very much an HP product ? or does HP still have the right the > the Alpha GEM, but Intel has the IA64 one ? I do not believe Intel has a license to GEM, they have their own backend. HP-UX also has its own backend, and I don't know about non-stop. When they were on Mips they used the Mips backend -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:32:01 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: <4633BD51.76BDD472@spam.comcast.net> Neil Rieck wrote: > [snip] > Maybe HP employees farther down the food chain are responsible for putting > pressure on customers to switch from OpenVMS to HP-UX? Try higher up, though they may have underlings "doing their dirty work" for them. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:12:48 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-basedservers Ita Message-ID: <4633B8D0.DAE378F7@spam.comcast.net> "news.hp.com" wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > However, the inability to get data into and out of the CPU faster than Alpha > > reduces the overall net performance to lower than Alpha. > > While the EV7-based systems excelled in this area, memory access latency > is only one small piece of the overall performance of a system. Clock > rates, cache latency and locality of reference, number of cores -- all > these and many other factors are involved. > > In the past one was able to say with confidence that Alpha and Itanium > performance in general was approximately equal, with Alpha faster on > some things and Itanium faster on others. With Montecito, the balance > has now tipped in favor of Integrity Servers. Well, sort of. All the data I've seen indicates that the memory access time issue remains unresolved. ...and even if it is, simply equaling Alpha is not enough. Remember: we've got Alphas running on the upscale peg. We need to do better than that - MUCH, -MUCH- better! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:15:20 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-basedservers Ita Message-ID: <4633B968.DF255490@spam.comcast.net> Dave Froble wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > I've also been told by the ISVs that HP has come to them - at the > > prompting of the OpenVMS user base - pushing Itanium and UX, not > > OpenVMS. > > Now that is an interesting statement. Has HP actually mentioned the > name of one VMS customer that has made this request? May as well ask them to admit defeat over I64 - never happen. > I'm thinking that > they would have a hard time coming up with even one name. Speaking only for myself, I could forward you some e-mail between myself and the powers-that-be at OpenVMS. What their higher-ups did with that info is beyond my control/comprehension. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:46:02 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <2303b$463396b6$cef8887a$32560@TEKSAVVY.COM> Bob Koehler wrote: > I know some such youngsters, I believe they are heros, and I wish > them all the best of luck, by I won't give any such honor to the > fellow who's sending them. What is a shame is that those young ones who actually did stand up against this war crime and refused to participate in this illegal invasion do not garner any respect. They are equated to the hippies from the vietnam era. If a guy signs up to defend his country, but is he then asked to illegally invade and destroy another country simply to fulfill Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz's *political* agendas, shouldn't he have a right to refuse his deployment to an illegal war ? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:55:49 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <463398B5.5070301@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> I know some such youngsters, I believe they are heros, and I wish >> them all the best of luck, by I won't give any such honor to the >> fellow who's sending them. > > > > What is a shame is that those young ones who actually did stand up > against this war crime and refused to participate in this illegal > invasion do not garner any respect. They are equated to the hippies from > the vietnam era. > > If a guy signs up to defend his country, but is he then asked to > illegally invade and destroy another country simply to fulfill > Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz's *political* agendas, shouldn't he have a > right to refuse his deployment to an illegal war ? If no court of competent jurisdiction has ruled that the war is "illegal" he would be risking trial by court martial and a sentence of death! Once you take the oath, you obey orders or else! An order may subsequently be held to be unlawful but you disobey at your peril! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:15:41 +0100 From: TheBagbournes Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: Dan O'Reilly wrote: > At 08:05 PM 4/26/2007, David J Dachtera wrote: >> Dan O'Reilly wrote: >> > [snip] >> >> Aw, Dan! I alway had such respect for you as a technical person... > > Well, let me put it this way: I come from a military family. My > son-in-law, a sergeant in the Army (the father of my grandchildren), is > getting ready to deploy to Iraq for his second year-long tour there. > I'll tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what they're doing. > And I'll tell you another secret: what's going on in Iraq isn't what is > being reported by the likes of PBS and Bill Moyers - or NBC, CBS or ABC, > for that matter. And one more secret: these kids hate what they see > being reported by the media in general, realizing that the media simply > isn't telling the whole story or even a correct one. The left of the > world has such blinding, unreasoning, vitriolic hate for Bush that they > never let little things like the facts get in their way. This whole BS > of "I support the troops but not the mission" is exactly that: BS. Or > put another way: "I support fireman, just not them putting out a fire" - > just as ridiculous a statement. > > Do I wish my son-in-law didn't have to go back in harm's way? Sure I do > - but I'm as proud of him as I can be. Do I agree with everything the > Bush administration has done? No, I don't. But I believe in what we're > doing, and I believe in my country. That's good enough for me. Whether > or not anybody else believes as I do is immaterial, and is a personal > choice everybody is allowed to make. But Dan, "our side" kicked off that war which unleashed those horrible things. We sent our troops off to kick up what all sensible people knew was a hornet's nest! And now it attracts every resentful, fundamentalist nutjob who just wants to inflict harm on western interests. Real nice job of making the world safer! I'm by no means "of the left", but politicians use historic events as excuses to further their own ends. Particularly if those politicians also have business interests in the business of war. The whole thing stank to high heaven from the very beginning. > That's good enough for me.... Don't let politicians tell you what to think! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:14:18 -0400 From: BobH Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <4633AB1A.3070602@x.y> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > >> Bob Koehler wrote: >> >>> I know some such youngsters, I believe they are heros, and I wish >>> them all the best of luck, by I won't give any such honor to the >>> fellow who's sending them. >> >> >> >> >> What is a shame is that those young ones who actually did stand up >> against this war crime and refused to participate in this illegal >> invasion do not garner any respect. They are equated to the hippies >> from the vietnam era. >> >> If a guy signs up to defend his country, but is he then asked to >> illegally invade and destroy another country simply to fulfill >> Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz's *political* agendas, shouldn't he have a >> right to refuse his deployment to an illegal war ? > > > If no court of competent jurisdiction has ruled that the war is > "illegal" he would be risking trial by court martial and a sentence of > death! Once you take the oath, you obey orders or else! An order may > subsequently be held to be unlawful but you disobey at your peril! > Yup, that is exactly the situation. 1) Its the law. 2) It really does not work out well to have each member of the military decide for themselves what is and what is not a legal order That is what courts do. Also, it turns out you can't run a military that way. Way too many of the participants don't particularly relish going out and risking their safety every day. That can cloud their legal judgements. :-) 3) It was an interesting point when I studied the UCMJ - you have to obey legal orders, and you should not obey illegal orders. But you are not in a position to decide which is which and there are no bright lines. What do you do? If you are in Lieutenant Calley's unit and he tells you to shoot people and says that he is following the orders of his immediate superior, what do you do? The presumption has to be that your commander's orders are legal, even though you as an individual may not understand why it should be done, or agree with the order. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:25:39 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: BobH wrote: > lines. What do you do? If you are in Lieutenant Calley's unit and he > tells you to shoot people and says that he is following the orders of > his immediate superior, what do you do? The presumption has to be that > your commander's orders are legal, even though you as an individual may > not understand why it should be done, or agree with the order. The problem is that the higher up guys protect themselves. When grunts were told to torture Iraqis, and some other grunt filmed and photographed everything and that media was help by the military for quite a long time. Many people knew torture had happened, nothing had happened. Hence, there would have been many senior people who essentially condoned itl. But when the media got the story and access to those tapes, only the grunts were charged and the USA public were told this was an isolated incident. Later on, Condi Rice defended those secret prisons with a very qualified "No american personel performed torture since 2005". This implied that prior to 2005 they did, and implies that post 2005, the actual torture was performed by contractors and/or fireigners on behalf of americans. Yet, only 2 grunts have been charged with torture, even though it is quite clear to the rest of the world that the "get information at any cost and make sure I have deniability" came from very high within the white house. So, when the poor kid only obeys orders without challenging illegal ones, when the shit hits the fan, he gets blamed for the actions, and his superiors get away with it because they claim the grunt acted independatly against their orders. If you're expected to blindly obey orders, then the military justice system should also blindly charge a superior whenever grunts make mistakes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:59:54 +1000 From: Phaeton Subject: OT: Congrats... Message-ID: <1337rgdaioaku37@corp.supernews.com> Congratulations to the Australian cricket team for winning a record third straight World Cup ! More here :-) : http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1909146.htm Cheers, Csaba ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| http://accounts.zotspot.com/?source=10965&m=l ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]: What has a beginning has an end. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:22:29 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: SET Security question Message-ID: Dave Froble wrote: > For what reason would the file be protected from > system access? IF you have users with a "system" group UIC which gives themm an implied sysprv, they may not have bypass or other privs that lets them play with *any* file. You may have a SYSTEM account that is normally used by operators with privileges disabled. So when you need to delete such files, you need to consciously enable some all mighty privilege to access the files. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 14:04:02 -0700 From: John Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Message-ID: <1177794242.725878.28970@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Apr 28, 5:03 am, Uusim=E4ki wrote: > You'll find the Multia firmware which is needed for running VMS on a > Multia on the VMS Freeware 5.0 CD's or on the 'net at: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware50/multia/ > > There are also installation instructions. > I have managed to install VMS V7.2 out-of-the-box and upgrade to V7.3-2 > with some tweaking. It runs fine but slow, as anyone can imagine. > > If you plan to use DECwindows, it's best to install at least 128MB of > RAM or if you can find 64MB SIMM's, use them. > > Don't put a very new disk drive inside the box or you run into trouble > with overheating. The original < 1GB disks drives don't produce too much > heat, but a 72GB 15k drive will melt the box. > A very nice storage solution for Multia is a BA353 (the pizzabox with a > CD drive, one or two disk drives and possibly a (DAT) tape drive. All > the 1.6" StorageWorks SBB's will fit into the BA353. You can find a > BA353 on Ebay for $10 or less. If you are lucky, it is fully equipped. > > I think it would be the best solution to get a bootable installation-CD, > which has the Multia-specific drivers included. I might be able to build > one and send it to you. > > Kari > At this time, I do not have access to a VMS machine with a floppy. Is there a way to write the things you linked from a Linux or Windows machine? A bootable install-cd would be nice, if you could build one for me. I'm going to try and find an appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive to slap in. If I were to get such a bootable install-cd with Multia drivers, I would still need to upgrade the firmware, right? Thanks John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:29:25 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Message-ID: <4633BCB5.7EF5AC96@spam.comcast.net> John wrote: > > I've got a Multia sitting here, not being used, and I'd like to run > VMS on it. I can find a SCSI disk that'll work (it came without > drives), but I think that's about the limit of hardware I'm going to > come up with. I thought the best, simplest thing to do would be to > find somebody who had a hard disk image for a Multia that I could > simply copy over to my hard drive. I realize that this image could > only come from somebody who has just a basic VMS installation, without > potentially sensitive information, so it's kind of a far out request, > but do any of you have this kind of thing around? > > I'd try installing "the hard way", except that I can't seem to find > the correct firmware version (I need 3.8-2, right?), I don't have a CD- > ROM drive... etc. I'm going to have to hack up the one additional > power cable anyway or attach another power supply outside the box just > so I can run my hard drive. If you know a better way, please let me > know. One of the issues with Alpha Multia at this point is that it won't run anything newer than V7.2 due to the lack of CPU support for it in the later versions. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:20:18 -0700 From: "John Gemignani, Jr." Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Message-ID: "David J Dachtera" wrote in message news:4633BCB5.7EF5AC96@spam.comcast.net... > John wrote: >> >> I've got a Multia sitting here, not being used, and I'd like to run >> VMS on it. I can find a SCSI disk that'll work (it came without >> drives), but I think that's about the limit of hardware I'm going to >> come up with. I thought the best, simplest thing to do would be to >> find somebody who had a hard disk image for a Multia that I could >> simply copy over to my hard drive. I realize that this image could >> only come from somebody who has just a basic VMS installation, without >> potentially sensitive information, so it's kind of a far out request, >> but do any of you have this kind of thing around? >> >> I'd try installing "the hard way", except that I can't seem to find >> the correct firmware version (I need 3.8-2, right?), I don't have a CD- >> ROM drive... etc. I'm going to have to hack up the one additional >> power cable anyway or attach another power supply outside the box just >> so I can run my hard drive. If you know a better way, please let me >> know. > > One of the issues with Alpha Multia at this point is that it won't run > anything > newer than V7.2 due to the lack of CPU support for it in the later > versions. > Check your system and see if you can get to some form of firmware prompt before installing any new hardware. They had a battery on board that, when it died, made the system useless. I was able to buy a replacement battery on the web. John ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.233 ************************