INFO-VAX Tue, 01 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 237 Contents: RE: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? CC and stdlib.h Re: CC and stdlib.h Re: CC and stdlib.h Re: CHILL Re: COPYTREE Question Re: COPYTREE Question cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 RE: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? RE: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Moon landings faked! (was Re: Noahs ark found!) Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! OpenVMS Advanced Technical Boot Camp Attendance update OT: Kodak Nipping at HP's heels Re: SET Security question Re: SNMP agent Re: Three HP Websites Ranked Among World's Best for Online Support Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:52:06 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Message-ID: -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: April 29, 2007 12:57 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> I am interested in running Apache on OpenVMS (Alpha platform), but > the > >> sysadmins I'm working with have told me that they are running on > >> OpenVMS version 7.2. HP's website on Apache (and their port to VMS, > >> Secure Web Server) > >> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_download.ht > >> ml > >> > >> indicates that you need OpenVMS version 7.3-1 at a minimum. > >> > >> Is there any way to run Apache on 7.2, or will standard Apache run > on > >> 7.2, i.e. not HP's ported version? What would be some of the issues > in > >> getting Apache to run on 7.2, if possible? >=20 > > Is there a reason why you would simply not just upgrade to take > > advantage of all the latest enhancements related to scalability, > > security, UNIX compatibility, new HW support, new features etc in > recent > > OpenVMS releases? >=20 > An upgrade to 7.3-2 may be n option, but I think HP should be > prepared for a lot of sites that are reluctant to go to 8.x. >=20 V7.3-2 would be a significantly better landing platform than V7.2 in = terms of performance, supportability etc.=20 Having stated this, I would still recommend only using V7.3-2 as a = temporary stop as the number of UNIX compatibility features in post = V7.3-2 is significant and will make it much easier to support Apps and = tag along pkgs like Apache that are primarily developed on UNIX = platforms. Course, like any OS platform, there may be some App certification = challenges with new OS versions, but conversely, a number of new Vendor = apps are only supported and/or certified on recent VMS OS versions. > > OpenVMS V7.2 was released in Jan 1999, so using an 8+ year old OS is > a > > bit like asking Microsoft if you can run the latest Apache web > server > > package on Windows NT4. >=20 > 1) Apache has never been supported by MS. Correct - good point. I was trying to provide an analogy in terms of = versions that the traditional Wintel sysadmin that Josh might be dealing = with would understand. > 2) Apache project does not support NT 4, but their notes > actually explains which pieces need to be installed on NT 4 > to get Apache 2.2 working. >=20 > Arne While I have no doubt the Apache group might state what needs to be = installed to make it work, if there are problems with add-ons and tag = along utilities, then one can assume the simple answer will be - = upgrade. In addition, Microsoft no longer provides security patches etc = for NT4, so there are other support issues to consider as well. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 03:12:34 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: > >>> I am interested in running Apache on OpenVMS (Alpha platform), but the >>> sysadmins I'm working with have told me that they are running on >>> OpenVMS version 7.2. HP's website on Apache (and their port to VMS, >>> Secure Web Server) >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_download.ht >>> ml >>> >>> indicates that you need OpenVMS version 7.3-1 at a minimum. >>> >>> Is there any way to run Apache on 7.2, or will standard Apache run on >>> 7.2, i.e. not HP's ported version? What would be some of the issues in >>> getting Apache to run on 7.2, if possible? > > >> Is there a reason why you would simply not just upgrade to take >> advantage of all the latest enhancements related to scalability, >> security, UNIX compatibility, new HW support, new features etc in recent >> OpenVMS releases? > > > An upgrade to 7.3-2 may be n option, but I think HP should be > prepared for a lot of sites that are reluctant to go to 8.x. > Why? If you're going to upgrade, what is there about 8.x that makes it a worse option than 7.3-2? (At this point, unless an upgrade has been in the works for some time already and you've been testing with an older version, I would plan on upgrading to V8.3, since UPDATE-V0200 has been out for a while now for both Alpha and I64.) >> OpenVMS V7.2 was released in Jan 1999, so using an 8+ year old OS is a >> bit like asking Microsoft if you can run the latest Apache web server >> package on Windows NT4. > > > 1) Apache has never been supported by MS. > 2) Apache project does not support NT 4, but their notes > actually explains which pieces need to be installed on NT 4 > to get Apache 2.2 working. > > Arne -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 17:58:11 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <59mp1jF2lb84vU3@mid.individual.net> In article <1177955510.433033.27110@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, BaxterD@tessco.com writes: > On Apr 30, 1:47 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <1177944252.776348.273...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >> Baxt...@tessco.com writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc wrote: >> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: >> >> >> > On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc wrote: >> >> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490 >> >> >> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: >> >> >> >> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery >> >> >> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a >> >> >> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the >> >> >> > pictures and video ... >> >> >> >> >http://www.arkfever.com/ >> >> >> >> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran, >> >> >> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow >> >> >> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have >> >> >> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't >> >> >> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your >> >> >> head off. >> >> >> >> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany. >> >> >> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good. >> >> >> >> Doc. >> >> >> > watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with >> >> > gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ... >> >> > explain that smart guy ... >> >> >> > most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount >> >> > Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains >> >> > of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and >> >> > there were some past references that pointed to the range >> >> > in Iran as being the place ... >> >> >> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity >> >> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*? >> >> >> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't >> >> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a >> >> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents. >> >> >> Doc.- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> - Show quoted text - >> >> > I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is >> > despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the >> > credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is >> > important, give him a break! >> >> > anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?" >> >> And "Why is there air?" >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >> b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include - Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > "To blow up Footballs and Basketballs and Volleyballs. Man! Everybody > knows why there's air" > > Wondered if anyone would catch the reference. > "Would you get that thing out of my driveway!" bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:44:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <29924$46368dd5$cef8887a$16285@TEKSAVVY.COM> Dirk Munk wrote: > Don't be so sceptical. For instace it was no problem at all for the > Kangeroos to hop from Australia to the the Middle East to take their > place in the Ark. The minor problems of the sea crossings were solved by > building rafts. All Australian animal couples joint forces, so that was > an easy task. You're complicating things. The Ark was like public transit. It started in north sea, crossed over to north america, travelled down to chile (panama canal wasn't fully built back then), then crossed over to new zealand, australia, then north through indonesia, asia, and then middle east. The ship stopped along the way to pickup any/all animals it could find, used the Penguin's instant dehydrating device to reduce them to some dust in a test tube which was properly labeled with the animal's point of origin, and then proceeded to the next stop on the route. Once the great flood was done, he simply needed to retrace his voyage in the opposite direction and drop the test tubes in the right location, add water and Pouf ! Voila, your animals are back. In scientific terms, noah's ark was likely the DNA scan of all known species into a large database to allow the recreation of such animals once bad conditions on the planet ended. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:20:49 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: Dirk Munk wrote: > Oh please, don't you start as well. Suppose Noahs story is true, then > the whole world would have been covered in 27000 feet of water (Mount > Everest is appr. 27000 feet high). Can you please tell me where that > water came from, and where it went? Turn up thermostat, wait for all the ice sheets to melt and flood the planet. Then turn thermostat back down, and slowly, the water will fall back as snow in the arctic to rebuild the ice sheets and lower ocean water levels. Or more realistically, warning of a dam about to burst, so a farmer loads some of his farm animals into a boat so that when the dam bursts, he can save some of his cattle as the valley floods. (dam bursting could be some mountain lake whose moraine shores would give way and send the lake's water hurtling down the mountain to flood the valley in a very destructive manner). Remember that the bible is just a story. Values can be derived from it, but the stories must not be taken litterally. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:24:56 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <7dc30$46369738$cef8887a$5272@TEKSAVVY.COM> Dirk Munk wrote: > Do you realy think the > atmosphere can contain enough water vapor to account for an extra 27000 > feet of water all over the world? Ever saw what happens when teenagers drop a bottle of dish soap in a fountain ? So, terrorists got hold of Proctor & Gamble's dishwashing soap factory and dumped a lot or soap into the ocean. The constant wave action would have resulted in huge amounts of foam covering the earth. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:42:56 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <46367ec1$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard Maher wrote: >> Application A does not care much about whether application B releases >> memory to the heap because the programmer put in delete/free calls or >> because the runtime environment provides GC. > > Related to this, and Kerry's "server consolidation" advocacy, is there a > Global Heap for every GC and every language that can be running on a server > OS? Are there universal OO (de)allocation algorithms/APIs that allow *any* > off-the-shelf GC to plug-in and clean-up after Java? Can different > applications written Java and C++ (and any other object instantiator) share > the same Heap and GC on the same server? Both heap and GC is per process thingies. Has to be on all operating systems where virtual memory is process specific. I believe it is common for C++ GC's to be pluggable. No JVM that I am aware of allows GC's to be pluggable. But most JVM's come with multiple GC's. I posted a list with the options for VMS Java somewhere in this thread. > It would seem less than optimal for a Java app to have a 2gigabyte heap with > it's own resource hungry GC and a seperate 4gigabyte heap for the C++ > applications and their own GC and then have Heap-Java maxing out during > o/night processing while the Heap-C++ is 90% free, but surely it would be an > absolute triumph for cross architecture standardization if it were > otherwise? And what about all of the "free" memory in the OS that hasn't > been artificially fenced off? Are CPU Class Schedulers also popular on OO > systems? As I explained above then heap and GC are per process not per system. > VMS does have the Reserved Memory Registry but each reservation is expected > to run around 100% most of the time (else make it smaller :-) "I want 1 gig > for that database and 4 gig for that database and then autogen so the OS > knows how much real memory it has.". Does Windows/Unix know to > re-tune/adjust when a given GC has taken a huge chunk of memory? Actually there are those that like Java on Windows because it gives them an easy option of controlling memory usage. java -Xms128m -Xmx512m ... And the heap starts at 128 MB and may maximum increase to 512 MB. That type of limiting does not impress in the VMS world. But there are other OS'es where apps just eat whatever they can get. > Alternatively, do GCs only cordon off page file quota and *not* physical > memory? GC releases memory within the heap allocated from the OS. Since it pure user mode code, then it operates on virtual memory. The OS figures out where those virtual pages reside. > PS. Slightly related, is a recent performance problem with the freeing of > WebBrowser DOM memory via JavaScript. If I had 3000 que entries in my Select > List and wanted to free them up before performing the next query then it > would take Internet Explorer ~20secs (almost all CPU) just to perform 3000x > selectList.remove(n)! People told me not to do the removes but rather just > set the Array.length to zero so I did that with no change in performance > :-( Then a smart guy called RobG from comp.lang.javascript told me to do a > "shallow" clone of the DOM node for the Select List (similar to the > following) and now it flies: - > > selectRef.size = 1; > selectClone = selectRef.cloneNode(false); > lovHdr = document.getElementById('lovHdr'); > hdrClone = lovHdr.cloneNode(true); > selectClone.appendChild(hdrClone); > selectRef.parentNode.replaceChild(selectClone, selectRef); > selectRef = document.getJobs.jobList; > > The things you have to do to keep this stuff happy eh? Yeah, it does it all > for you. . . I am not a JavaScript expert. I am not surprised you see such problems. JavaScript is not intended for big apps. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:48:01 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: Hi Arne, Thanks for the reply. > Both heap and GC is per process thingies. Has to be on all > operating systems where virtual memory is process specific. : : : : > GC releases memory within the heap allocated from the OS. Since it > pure user mode code, then it operates on virtual memory. Ok, I think I'm with you now. So the GC runs in the context of each process (presumably a seperate thread?) constantly freeing and or compacting the local process heap? If an emergency freeze is required when the local heap is exhausted then it is only the threads in that single process that are affected? Not being a threads person, I'm assuming that stacks are private/thread and the heap is global to the process, so I guess it is normally a ratio of 1GC:Process beavering away? (But in the case of a threaded web server that could be dealing with thousands of connections, surely such a housekeeping mutex could have a bit more impact than even an Itanium alignment fault?) And I know CPUs are fast these days, but does 1000 processes really = 1000 additional GCs? > I am not surprised you see such problems. JavaScript is not intended > for big apps. Look, I'm with you on this but I have recently seen some strong argument in favour of that wording being changed from "is not" to "was not". Especially when one includes Java-Applet augmentation. The quality and performance of some of these HTML/CSS/JavaScript interfaces is truly astounding and yet so easy and quick to develop. IMO a full-blown (non browser-constrained) Java or VB or a.n.other native application is always going to beat a JavaScript GUI handsdown on performance, functionality, and certainly security, but the lightweight, tiny-footprint, JavaScript/HTML/CSS application has put its stall out and is pushing the boundries back every day. (And you don't install anything on the Client; new versions of your App just roll out. If you say that's WebStart's territory and that's the direction that everyone's going in then I yeild to your far greater experience. Me? I'm gonna install a copy of FireFox and get a look at that, soon to be indispensable, FireBug!) Let me also be quite clear that the memory deallocation anomally I reported in mt previous post was not a generic JavaScript problem but rather a specific Internet Explorer issue. Safari, Firefox and Opera all performed well without the contortion. (Although every browser showed improvement with the node clone functionality). Cheers Richard Maher "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:46367ec1$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > Richard Maher wrote: > >> Application A does not care much about whether application B releases > >> memory to the heap because the programmer put in delete/free calls or > >> because the runtime environment provides GC. > > > > Related to this, and Kerry's "server consolidation" advocacy, is there a > > Global Heap for every GC and every language that can be running on a server > > OS? Are there universal OO (de)allocation algorithms/APIs that allow *any* > > off-the-shelf GC to plug-in and clean-up after Java? Can different > > applications written Java and C++ (and any other object instantiator) share > > the same Heap and GC on the same server? > > Both heap and GC is per process thingies. Has to be on all > operating systems where virtual memory is process specific. > > I believe it is common for C++ GC's to be pluggable. > > No JVM that I am aware of allows GC's to be pluggable. > > But most JVM's come with multiple GC's. > > I posted a list with the options for VMS Java somewhere in this thread. > > > It would seem less than optimal for a Java app to have a 2gigabyte heap with > > it's own resource hungry GC and a seperate 4gigabyte heap for the C++ > > applications and their own GC and then have Heap-Java maxing out during > > o/night processing while the Heap-C++ is 90% free, but surely it would be an > > absolute triumph for cross architecture standardization if it were > > otherwise? And what about all of the "free" memory in the OS that hasn't > > been artificially fenced off? Are CPU Class Schedulers also popular on OO > > systems? > > As I explained above then heap and GC are per process not per system. > > > VMS does have the Reserved Memory Registry but each reservation is expected > > to run around 100% most of the time (else make it smaller :-) "I want 1 gig > > for that database and 4 gig for that database and then autogen so the OS > > knows how much real memory it has.". Does Windows/Unix know to > > re-tune/adjust when a given GC has taken a huge chunk of memory? > > Actually there are those that like Java on Windows because it gives > them an easy option of controlling memory usage. > > java -Xms128m -Xmx512m ... > > And the heap starts at 128 MB and may maximum increase to 512 MB. > > That type of limiting does not impress in the VMS world. But there > are other OS'es where apps just eat whatever they can get. > > > Alternatively, do GCs only cordon off page file quota and *not* physical > > memory? > > GC releases memory within the heap allocated from the OS. Since it > pure user mode code, then it operates on virtual memory. > > The OS figures out where those virtual pages reside. > > > PS. Slightly related, is a recent performance problem with the freeing of > > WebBrowser DOM memory via JavaScript. If I had 3000 que entries in my Select > > List and wanted to free them up before performing the next query then it > > would take Internet Explorer ~20secs (almost all CPU) just to perform 3000x > > selectList.remove(n)! People told me not to do the removes but rather just > > set the Array.length to zero so I did that with no change in performance > > :-( Then a smart guy called RobG from comp.lang.javascript told me to do a > > "shallow" clone of the DOM node for the Select List (similar to the > > following) and now it flies: - > > > > selectRef.size = 1; > > selectClone = selectRef.cloneNode(false); > > lovHdr = document.getElementById('lovHdr'); > > hdrClone = lovHdr.cloneNode(true); > > selectClone.appendChild(hdrClone); > > selectRef.parentNode.replaceChild(selectClone, selectRef); > > selectRef = document.getJobs.jobList; > > > > The things you have to do to keep this stuff happy eh? Yeah, it does it all > > for you. . . > > I am not a JavaScript expert. > > I am not surprised you see such problems. JavaScript is not intended > for big apps. > > Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:40:35 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <4636a863$0$90270$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard Maher wrote: >> Both heap and GC is per process thingies. Has to be on all >> operating systems where virtual memory is process specific. > : : : : >> GC releases memory within the heap allocated from the OS. Since it >> pure user mode code, then it operates on virtual memory. > > Ok, I think I'm with you now. So the GC runs in the context of each process > (presumably a seperate thread?) constantly freeing and or compacting the > local process heap? Yes. > If an emergency freeze is required when the local heap > is exhausted then it is only the threads in that single process that are > affected? Yes. > Not being a threads person, I'm assuming that stacks are > private/thread and the heap is global to the process, so I guess it is > normally a ratio of 1GC:Process beavering away? 1 process, N application threads, possible just 1 GC thread. > (But in the case of a > threaded web server that could be dealing with thousands of connections, > surely such a housekeeping mutex could have a bit more impact than even an > Itanium alignment fault?) 1000 connections, 1 process, probably 50 threads or so in a thread pool processing requests, 1 GC thread. Yes - there are some overhead. But synchronization between threads is one of the things that has been heavily optimized in JVM's. > And I know CPUs are fast these days, but does 1000 > processes really = 1000 additional GCs? Not 1000 and 1000 - 1 and 1. >> I am not surprised you see such problems. JavaScript is not intended >> for big apps. > > Look, I'm with you on this but I have recently seen some strong argument in > favour of that wording being changed from "is not" to "was not". Especially > when one includes Java-Applet augmentation. The quality and performance of > some of these HTML/CSS/JavaScript interfaces is truly astounding and yet so > easy and quick to develop. IMO a full-blown (non browser-constrained) Java > or VB or a.n.other native application is always going to beat a JavaScript > GUI handsdown on performance, functionality, and certainly security, but the > lightweight, tiny-footprint, JavaScript/HTML/CSS application has put its > stall out and is pushing the boundries back every day. (And you don't > install anything on the Client; new versions of your App just roll out. If > you say that's WebStart's territory and that's the direction that everyone's > going in then I yeild to your far greater experience. Me? I'm gonna install > a copy of FireFox and get a look at that, soon to be indispensable, > FireBug!) > > Let me also be quite clear that the memory deallocation anomally I reported > in mt previous post was not a generic JavaScript problem but rather a > specific Internet Explorer issue. Safari, Firefox and Opera all performed > well without the contortion. (Although every browser showed improvement with > the node clone functionality). JavaScript is universal used. And can be very usefull. I am just saying that having JavaScript processing thousands of data objects is probably not high on the "to test" list by those creating JavaScript interpreters. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 04:35:41 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: Michael D. Ober wrote: > "Main, Kerry" wrote in message > news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684022F2EDC@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Michael D. Ober [mailto:"obermd."@.alum.mit.edu.nospam] >>Sent: April 28, 2007 5:23 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? >> >> > > > > [snip ...] > > > >>>You didn't answer my first question, which was... >>>But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? >>> >>> >> >>Actually, since I have to process each node multiple times and they >>are >>being processed by different threads, I don't really know ahead of >>time when >>the node will be available for reclamation. Even the number of times >>each >>node is processed is indeterminate - anywhere from 2 to 52 times per >>node. >>When each thread is done with the node, it simply removes it from it's >>local >>processing queue. Yes, I could reference count the node as I add and >>remove >>it to and from the trees and queues used by the program, but this >>would >>clutter the code with memory management features. Even the basic GC I >>described can handle this better and with less chance of error. >> >> >>>>Mike. >>>> > > >>Mike, > > >>Something I would like to understand - how did programmers deal with all >>of this memory reclamation with traditional languages before OO styles >>of programming were introduced? > > > They did it themselves. Having had to do memory management myself in non-GC > environments, I can tell you that manual memory management increases the > time to complete a program as well as the (dramatically) complexity of the > code. > > >>It seems to me (but willing to be corrected), that all of these GC >>discussions started when J2EE and .Net OO paradigms were being >>introduced. > > > GC languages have been around since the late 60s or early 70s. However, it > wasn't until Java that a fully GC language became popular. Dartmouth BASIC > had a simple GC for string variables. > > LISP had a garbage collector at least as far back as 1966, since it discussed in (LISP 1.5 PRIMER (BY (CLARK WIESSMAN))) published in that year, but I think it goes back at least as far as LISP 1.5 in 1962. >>I guess I am still grappling to understand why an application needs to >>worry about memory management in a virtual memory OS design. I can >>understand this in the case whereby perhaps an OS does not provide >>virtual memory capabilities, but memory management seems to me the dept >>of the OS. > You could just ignore the issue and always allocate more memory on demand, but that's the definition of a memory leak, and even on a VM system is a horribly inefficient use of resources. (BAD Programmer! Sound of slap on wrist, or if you are JF, a baseball bat...) Or you could keep a pool and allocate and deallocate from it, grow (SYS$CRETVA and various LIB$_ wrappers) when needed, leaving random- sized holes in your heap because you never compact. This is good enough for most programs most of the time, because eventually the program will either terminate or have made the heap large enough, with enough large holes in it, that new allocations and deallocations will usually cancel out (i.e. there will almost always be a hole left by a recent deallocation large enough to hold the latest allocation), and the program will stop growing. But for an OOP which may create and discard enormous numbers of objects, occasionally keeping some of them for extended periods of time, the heap can keep growing indefinitely and get harder and harder to manage (e.g. if you have to look at thousands of 64-byte free chunks before you finally find a 72-byte chunk large enough to hold your new object), and the program gets slower and slower, and eventually you have to restart it to get reasonable performance. (Sound familiar? M$ ) There are many strategies to improve this... Track sizes of free chunks on separate lists so you can find appropriately-sized chunks quickly... Consolidate adjacent free chunks so as to reduce pool fragmentation... Use a compressing GC to consolidate all the free chunks into one. Note this is *not* an OS issue. It is at best a run-time library issue, or a compiler issue. Or the programmer can do all the work, basically implementing a private heap management scheme, which is a terrible use of programming resources (though probably a very good educational experience.) It's much better to have someone or some group of programmers do it once (correctly) and have the programmers work on the application. (And I say that as someone whose favorite programming language is Macro-11. :-) > > VMS is the only OS that actually has primitives for OS level memory > management for an application. Examples of these primitives are the > LIB$ calls. Now look at the market size for VMS - tiny > compared to Unix/Linux, Windows, and Mac. Given this reality in the market > place, programmers have had to worry about memory management issues. > > >>What happens when you start virtualizing the application that depends on >>GC under such environments like VMware (e.g. Windows/Linux) or when you >>start application stacking with other app's on the same system (e.g. >>OpenVMS)? > > > This is why the OS itself should really be doing all the memory management. I'm distinguishing the OS (kernel) from the RTL's. The OS has its own internal memory management issues (what happens to a BG: device DDB when the network connection goes away?), but for user code, the proper place for all this is in the LIB$ or language-specific RTL's (or buried in the guts of the Java VM, etc.) rather than in the application code. > As I stated in another part of this thread, there are research projects in > both academia and industry that are working on OS level GC systems. In the kernel, executing outside of process context, or as part of the system library memory heap management package, called by the application automatically when it allocates or deallocates strings, structures or other objects? > > >>Thanks, > > > >>Kerry Main >>Senior Consultant >>HP Services Canada >>Voice: 613-592-4660 >>Fax: 613-591-4477 >>kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom >>(remove the DOT's and AT) > > >>OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > > Mike. > > > > > > > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 11:55:59 -0700 From: RandyG271 Subject: CC and stdlib.h Message-ID: <1177959359.889198.164430@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> All, I am new to OpenVMS (7.3-2 in my case). When this compiles... #include where is the stdlib.h found? CC is set as follows... $ CC :== CC/DEBUG/NOOPTIMIZE/STANDARD=VAXC/DEFINE=HAVE_CONFIG_H- /INCLUDE_DIRECTORY=([-],[-.LIB],[-.SRC],[-.VMS])/ PREFIX_LIBRARY_ENTRIES=ALL_ENTRIES Thanks in advance for helping out a OpenVMS noobie! I have read the help page in /INCLUDE_DIRECTORY, alas, my still-limited understanding of RMS is causing mental fog. Regards -Randy Galbraith ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 21:24:10 +0200 From: huber@NIRWANA-mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) Subject: Re: CC and stdlib.h Message-ID: In article <1177959359.889198.164430@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, RandyG271 writes: > > #include > > where is the stdlib.h found? CC is set as follows... > > $ CC :== CC/DEBUG/NOOPTIMIZE/STANDARD=VAXC/DEFINE=HAVE_CONFIG_H- > /INCLUDE_DIRECTORY=([-],[-.LIB],[-.SRC],[-.VMS])/ > PREFIX_LIBRARY_ENTRIES=ALL_ENTRIES > > Thanks in advance for helping out a OpenVMS noobie! I have read the > help page in /INCLUDE_DIRECTORY, alas, my still-limited understanding > of RMS is causing mental fog. The standard C includes are -different from unix type systems- in a text library: sys$library:decc$rtl.tlb. For inspection, and only if the VMS/compiler installer selected it, they may be in sys$common:[decc$lib...]. -- Joseph Huber , Muenchen,Germany: http://www.huber-joseph.de/ ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 16:05:24 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: CC and stdlib.h Message-ID: <94+Mt$ZIMHOx@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1177959359.889198.164430@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, RandyG271 writes: > All, > > I am new to OpenVMS (7.3-2 in my case). When this compiles... > > #include > > where is the stdlib.h found? CC is set as follows... stdlib.h may not be found. Element STDLIB will be found in sys$library:decc$rtldef.tlb (a text library). Your system manager may have reference copies in sys$sysroot:[decc$lib.reference.decc$rtldef], but the compiler looks in the text library for performance reasons and the reference copies are not required. The reference copy is just there so you can perform searches and such. c.f. $ help cc /include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 04:47:21 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: CHILL Message-ID: In article <7e311$4634f087$cef8887a$16497@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: > > Whatever happened to the CHILL compiler for the VAX? > > Can't resist... > > It vanished due to global warming. Nah, it got banned with yesteryear's scare of the effect of CFCs on the ozone layer. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:07:12 -0400 From: Joel Subject: Re: COPYTREE Question Message-ID: On Tue, 01 May 2007 04:08:52 +0800, Paul Repacholi wrote: >Chuck Aaron writes: > >> I want to copy a directory and all it's sub directories and files >> from one server to a new server where the directories do not >> currently exist. what is the best way to do this with or without >> copytree? > >COPY. > >You do have to create the destination root directory first though. >Detail is left as a small excercise. Hint, you don't need anything >special. Second hint, DECnet is not special... Be carefull using the COPY command when moving the files. You will need an account, if not the same, on the new server. I would use the BACKUP/BY_OWNER=ORIGINAL option as it will maintain all file protections and acl's from the original files. It will also keep the file dates (creations,modified) the same as the original. Joel Loveless Systems Admin (Available) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:38:25 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: COPYTREE Question Message-ID: Chuck Aaron wrote: > I want to copy a directory and all it's sub directories and files from one > server to a new server where the directories do not currently exist. > what is the best way to do this with or without copytree? BACKUP is the tool. But it requires a magic incarnation to get it to rebuild a new tree that is identical to the original one under the new root. Use google for comp.os.vms in the last 2 years search for BACKUP and [...*] and you'll find a coupl;e of posts of the magic incantation that ended up working. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 12:08:48 -0700 From: RandyG271 Subject: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <1177960128.794562.229130@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> All, I'm attempting to compile cvs 1.11.22 for OpenVMS 7.3-2. My understanding thus far is an experimental client-only port has been created, but may require patches to compile and run. In the hopes someone may have recently covered this territory I will post my current roadblock. The first failure results from a lack of [.LIB]FNMATCH.H, which I solved by making a copy of [.LIB]FNMATCH_H.IN. At this point the compile (via @BUILD) fails in [.LIB]GETOPT.C with the following diagnostics: $ CC getopt.c char *const *argv; ..........^ %CC-E-PROMOTMATCH, In the definition of the function "cvs_getopt", the promoted type of argv is incompatible with the type of the co rresponding parameter in a prior declaration. at line number 674 in file SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 const char *optstring; ................^ %CC-E-PROMOTMATCH, In the definition of the function "cvs_getopt", the promoted type of optstring is incompatible with the type of t he corresponding parameter in a prior declaration. at line number 675 in file SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 My reserach thus far seems to point to a getopt() prototype mismatch. However, I'm limited here, since I'm quite new to OpenVMS. I will continue to research, and post back results, but if anyone here has an answer of course that would be great! Thanks in advance. Regards, -Randy Galbraith ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 21:38:11 +0200 From: huber@NIRWANA-mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) Subject: Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: In article <1177960128.794562.229130@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, RandyG271 writes: > I'm attempting to compile cvs 1.11.22 for OpenVMS 7.3-2. My > understanding thus far is an experimental client-only port has been > created, but may require patches to compile and run. In the hopes > someone may have recently covered this territory I will post my > current roadblock. > The first failure results from a lack of [.LIB]FNMATCH.H, which I > solved by making a copy of [.LIB]FNMATCH_H.IN. > > At this point the compile (via @BUILD) fails in [.LIB]GETOPT.C with > the following diagnostics: > > $ CC getopt.c > > char *const *argv; > ..........^ > %CC-E-PROMOTMATCH, In the definition of the function "cvs_getopt", the > promoted type of argv is incompatible with the type of the co > rresponding parameter in a prior declaration. > at line number 674 in file SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 The message is quite clear, somewhere before argv has been decrared differently, maybe not const. Other compilers ignore this, DECC does not. > > const char *optstring; > ................^ > %CC-E-PROMOTMATCH, In the definition of the function "cvs_getopt", the > promoted type of optstring is incompatible with the type of t > he corresponding parameter in a prior declaration. > at line number 675 in file SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 > > My reserach thus far seems to point to a getopt() prototype mismatch. > However, I'm limited here, since I'm quite new to OpenVMS. I will > continue to research, and post back results, but if anyone here has an > answer of course that would be great! Thanks in advance. getopt in all newer VMS versions is a RTL standard declaration. See "HELP CRTL getopt". If cvs_getopt is really needed, i.e. if it does something special like long options, then exclude the getopt global variables from using the standard (prefixed) ones. If I need e.g. the GNU getopt supporting long options, then it works using the following: $! CC_GNU_GETOPT: compile GNU getopt instead DECC rtl getopt $! to compile with the GNU version of getopt (supporting long options) $ cc/pref=(all,excep=(getopt,optind,opterr,optopt,optarg)) 'p1' -- Joseph Huber , Muenchen,Germany: http://www.huber-joseph.de/ ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 16:13:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: In article <1177960128.794562.229130@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, RandyG271 writes: > %CC-E-PROMOTMATCH, In the definition of the function "cvs_getopt", the > promoted type of argv is incompatible with the type of the co > rresponding parameter in a prior declaration. > at line number 674 in file SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 > > > My reserach thus far seems to point to a getopt() prototype mismatch. > However, I'm limited here, since I'm quite new to OpenVMS. I will > continue to research, and post back results, but if anyone here has an > answer of course that would be great! Thanks in advance. Yep, that's a prototype mismatch. If you look you'll find one of them is const and the other is not. Lots of compilers will ignore this kind of sloppy code. The existing cvs.exe from an earlier port works, I've used it. I just recently got the source to build myself by fixing a few of those bugs, laying in the old VMS porting library (superceded by GNV, I think) and supplying my own crypt() (I couldn't find the original UNIX crypt() in any of the usual places). I'm trying to get the server going (not previously ported to my knowledge). There's some assumptions about hand-coded reading of /etc/passwd in my copy near where crypt() is used, so I think it's pretty ratty stuff. I don't see anything being done that a fairly standard getpasswdent() couldn't return on a real UNIX. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 17:01:53 -0700 From: RandyG271 Subject: Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <1177977713.806063.37860@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Joseph & Bob, Thank you so much for your kind assistance -- it was very helpful. Here is the changes I made. CVS.EXE now compiles and appears to work (minus "login" which has been noted on the web). Alas, I'm still left to wonder about a few things (see below) [XX.CVS.LIB]$ diff getopt.h ************ File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.H;2 124 /* extern int getopt (); -RandyG */ 125 extern int getopt (int __argc, char * const __argv[], const char *__optstring); 126 extern int getopt_long (int argc, char *const *argv, const char *shortopts, ****** File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.H;1 124 extern int getopt (); 125 126 extern int getopt_long (int argc, char *const *argv, const char *shortopts, ************ ************ File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.H;2 138 /* extern int getopt (); -RandyG */ 139 extern int getopt (int __argc, char * const __argv[], const char *__optstring); 140 extern int getopt_long (); ****** File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.H;1 138 extern int getopt (); 139 extern int getopt_long (); ************ [XX.CVS.LIB]$ diff getopt.c ************ File SYSTEMS$HOME:[PHXPROD.GALBRARA.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;2 674 char * const argv[]; 675 const char *optstring; 676 /* int argc; 677 char *const *argv; 678 const char *optstring; -RandyG */ 679 { ****** File SYSTEMS$HOME:[PHXPROD.GALBRARA.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 674 char *const *argv; 675 const char *optstring; 676 { ************ The above changes do fix the fatal compile error, however I'm now left with this warning... $ CC getopt.c extern int getopt (int __argc, char * const __argv[], const char *__optstring); ...........^ %CC-W-NOTCOMPAT, In this declaration, the type of "cvs_getopt" is not compatible with the type of a previous declaration of "cvs_get opt" at line number 583 in file SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF.TLB;2. at line number 139 in file SYSTEMS$HOME: [PHXPROD.GALBRARA.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.H;2 Note #1: We see "cvs_getopt" here, due to a #define in getopt.h. The #define is used to avoid a name collision. Note #2: As far as I can determine getopt is defined on my platform in unistd.h. It was using LIBRARY/EXTRACT on RTLDEF.TLB that gave me the getopt() prototype you see in my changes. Note #3: Whereas the above warning mentions line 583, in getopt.h getopt() is define on lin 370. Perhaps the getopt() in this compile comes from somewhere else? Perhaps I don't understand what "line number X" means when referring to a .TLB file? [XX.CVS.SRC]$ diff build_src.com ************ File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.SRC]BUILD_SRC.COM;2 70 [-.zlib]zlib.olb/lib,[-.diff]diff.olb/lib, [-.lib]gnulib.olb/lib 71 $ set noverify ****** File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.SRC]BUILD_SRC.COM;1 70 [-.zlib]libz.olb/lib,[-.diff]diff.olb/lib, [-.lib]gnulib.olb/lib 71 $ set noverify ************ Note #4: This must be a "libz" vs "zlib" typo. In any regards this change is required for LINK to succeed. Regards, -Randy Galbraith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:45:51 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Krischik [mailto:krischik@users.sourceforge.net] > Sent: April 30, 2007 3:48 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? >=20 > JF Mezei schrieb: >=20 > > http://news.com.com/Qantas+ditches+Linux+for+AIX/2100-1012_3- > 6179739.html?tag=3Dne.fd.mnbc > > > > > > Article on how Qantas has some stability issues with Linux is is > > switching to a proprietary Unix (IBM AIX) that is better supported > and > > more scalable). (also mention of a Australian company moving from > True > > 64 :-) > > > > Would this be an isolated case, or the start of a trend ? If so, > perhaps > > VMS (if it were marketed) might have a nice opening for many > > possibilities when people seek more robust solutions than Linux. >=20 > Shure, there are a lot of good things about VMS kernel. However - the > tools are lacking - big time. I expect any former Linux user to utter > his first swear word within the first minute - when he found out how > primitive the DCL "readline" is. >=20 [snip...] As others have highlighted, you seem to be lacking some basic familiarity with recent OpenVMS changes and enhancements. Re: tools - I would encourage you to review the following: In line with the Sun J2EE crowd, HP now offers the NetBeans IDE environment for OpenVMS. This allows one the benefits of using existing tools while at the same time integrate with new J2EE environments as well. Reference: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html (New release on Alpha and Integrity) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for Java and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), it was open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result of its versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of use.=20 Key features are:=20 - Support for the Java, C/C++, XML, and HTML=20 - Support for JSP, XML, RMI, CORBA, JINI, JDBC, and servlet technologies - Support for Ant, CVS, and other version control systems=20 - Pluggable support for compilers, debuggers and execution services=20 - GUI form designer and other visual design tools=20 - Wizards for code generation and management tools=20 - Syntax-highlighting source editor=20 The goal of the NetBeans "community"-based development philosophy is to maximize extensibility with the most generic and flexible framework possible so that new tools can be added to a solid, stable, efficient, and backward-compatible foundation.=20 Because the NetBeans tools platform is developed as an open-source project, it has the potential to be the basis for other development tools no matter what language or technology is being used. To this end, NetBeans features open APIs to permit extensibility - for example, version control support and Javadoc search and generation.=20 The NetBeans IDE offers an impressive range of features that cover all aspects of application development and stages of the development cycle: > User Interface > Code Editor > GUI Editor > Version Control > Debugger > XML > Distributed Application Support > Database Support > Web Development > Experimental Functionality NetBeans and OpenVMS OpenVMS is a full participant in the ongoing development and evolution of NetBeans. In addition to porting the core IDE to the Alpha platform, OpenVMS Engineering is pleased to make available new plug-in modules for NetBeans designed to maximize the value of NetBeans to the OpenVMS developer community.=20 One aspect of NetBeans' versatility is its capability of serving as a non-Java language development environment. Therefore, with the objective of making NetBeans an IDE for Java and non-Java developers alike, OpenVMS Engineering has architected a C and C++ support module especially for OpenVMS.=20 Goals and Directions The NetBeans modular design is inherently flexible and customizable. The stated goals of the NetBeans open-source project include the following:=20 - Be multiplatform and distributed - various operating systems, servers, workstations, and so on.=20 - Be multilanguage, including Java, HTML (with the possibility of adding C/C++ and Perl).=20 - Use various technologies and standards, such as XML (with the possibility of supporting different databases).=20 - Support all stages of development - namely, design, modeling (possibly UML), implementation, documentation, deployment, and support=20 - Permit different work models - from individuals, to small teams, large distributed teams, and open source. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:51:23 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: <463680bc$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > http://news.com.com/Qantas+ditches+Linux+for+AIX/2100-1012_3-6179739.html?tag=ne.fd.mnbc > > Article on how Qantas has some stability issues with Linux is is > switching to a proprietary Unix (IBM AIX) that is better supported and > more scalable). > Would this be an isolated case, or the start of a trend ? Maybe not an isolated case, but I will expect the numbers of sites migrating from big Unix to Linux be many times bigger than those moving from Linux to big Unix also in the future. The article is not very detailed about the why. > If so, perhaps > VMS (if it were marketed) might have a nice opening for many > possibilities when people seek more robust solutions than Linux. I think AIX and Solaris will take the majority of those leaving Linux. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:55:16 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: <463681a3$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > In line with the Sun J2EE crowd, HP now offers the NetBeans IDE > environment for OpenVMS. This allows one the benefits of using existing > tools while at the same time integrate with new J2EE environments as > well. > > Reference: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html (New > release on Alpha and Integrity) > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html > NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for Java > and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), it was > open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result of its > versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of use. It is good, but it could be better. OpenVMS: NetBeans 3.6 NetBeans 5.0 Field Test 2 Other platforms: NetBeans 5.5 NetBeans 6.0 Milestone 8 Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:48:16 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: April 30, 2007 7:55 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > In line with the Sun J2EE crowd, HP now offers the NetBeans IDE > > environment for OpenVMS. This allows one the benefits of using > existing > > tools while at the same time integrate with new J2EE environments as > > well. > > > > Reference: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html > (New > > release on Alpha and Integrity) > > > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html > > NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for > Java > > and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), it > was > > open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result of its > > versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of use. >=20 > It is good, but it could be better. >=20 > OpenVMS: > NetBeans 3.6 > NetBeans 5.0 Field Test 2 >=20 > Other platforms: > NetBeans 5.5 > NetBeans 6.0 Milestone 8 >=20 > Arne http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html Download Distributed NetBeans V5.0 Field Test 2 for OpenVMS Alpha and = I64 (December 2006) Given how most shops are reluctant to jump on the latest versions of = IDE's (worried about production schedule hits), it does not bother me = that much if OpenVMS is a release behind. With IDE's, its not unlike OS = releases i.e. most shops do not do .0 releases, but rather wait for SP's = or maint releases. Heck, many shops I know of are still running 1.4 versions of Java. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:38:09 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: Hi Kerry, > Heck, many shops I know of are still running 1.4 versions of Java. Presumably that includes the 99.9% of any VMS shops that may have been running Java, 'cos up until very very recently they didn't have a whole lot of choice, did they? Didn't Sun release 1.6 of Java before VMS announced support for 1.5? Is that project still underway to provide a high-performance industry compatible C compiler and RTL on VMS? After 20 years and 200million I reakon you guys must have just about nailed that fork() thing by now? Did I also hear that the POSIX shell was making a come back? What was the ROI like on that anyway? So now the Goal Posts have been set up next to Java? Is that so ISVs can port their vast catalogues of Java-based software products to VMS? (Or is the installed base supposed to pick up the tab and justify the expense by, once again, 180ing their inhouse development strategy to suite the whim of DEC/Compaq/HP?) I'd be happy if we just invested the money in keeping the ISVs we've already got :-( "Ok Mr Software Developer, so you'd like to develop and deploy a system in Java would you? We have a choice of this SUN box and operating system that was used to create and test Java on in the first place with the suped up 1.6 engine, or there's the VMS family-truckster in metalic-pea; now take your time, I don't want you to rush anything." At least SUN pays for the JVM development on Windows, I somehow don't think they're forking out for the one on VMS. No! It is yet again that cash cow of VMS 3GL license payers who get to prop up every folly that takes engineering's fancy :-( But you gotta keep aghead of the curve eh? (Or ever sooooo slightly behind, as the case may be.) But you're talking too fast, slow down a bit, I'm trying to take notes: - So it's not ONC RPC or DCE RPC It's not ACMSxp It's not DECforms It's not DECadmire It's not COM It's bloody well not BridgeWorks So it *is* now NetBeans and the Waste of Substantial Investment in Technology? This is what is needed to conceal our embarassing legacy/heritage VMS software from the public gaze. Ok, let's get the stone masons in so we can at least pin you down on that. We may be a few versions behind, and who cares if the benchmarks are complete crap, the important thing is it almost sounds like a duck! (A bit more like Rodney Dangerfield in CaddyShack, but anyway. . .) Regards Richard Maher "Main, Kerry" wrote in message news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684022F31C6@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajhøj [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: April 30, 2007 7:55 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > In line with the Sun J2EE crowd, HP now offers the NetBeans IDE > > environment for OpenVMS. This allows one the benefits of using > existing > > tools while at the same time integrate with new J2EE environments as > > well. > > > > Reference: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html > (New > > release on Alpha and Integrity) > > > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html > > NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for > Java > > and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), it > was > > open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result of its > > versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of use. > > It is good, but it could be better. > > OpenVMS: > NetBeans 3.6 > NetBeans 5.0 Field Test 2 > > Other platforms: > NetBeans 5.5 > NetBeans 6.0 Milestone 8 > > Arne http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html Download Distributed NetBeans V5.0 Field Test 2 for OpenVMS Alpha and I64 (December 2006) Given how most shops are reluctant to jump on the latest versions of IDE's (worried about production schedule hits), it does not bother me that much if OpenVMS is a release behind. With IDE's, its not unlike OS releases i.e. most shops do not do .0 releases, but rather wait for SP's or maint releases. Heck, many shops I know of are still running 1.4 versions of Java. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 22:14:41 -0700 From: David B Sneddon Subject: Moon landings faked! (was Re: Noahs ark found!) Message-ID: <1177996481.924778.253000@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 1, 1:34 am, JF Mezei wrote: > This just in: > > Initial scans and excavation work around Noah's Ark have revealed that > Noah used an Alpha server running VMS with software to hold the database > of all animals and their original location. I just watched the video... I'm sure those rocks in the opening sequence were the same ones used to fake the Moon landings. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:47:54 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <463654d8$0$7608$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> I seem to recall that the army tried to restore electric power, >> water, etc, only to find that as fast as they fixed things, people >> would sabotage the water pumps, steal the carburators off the >> generators, etc. > > > It was well documented that the electric grid in Iraq was already > extremely fragile and had insufficient capacity. Yet, Rumsfeld, > wantintg to prove his gonads were still working, ordered hsi big > fancy high tech bombs to target these facilities as well as all > telecom facilities, and all government buildings except for the oil > ministry. > In terms of reconstruction, it shouldn't be the invador that rebuilds. > The invador should hire local contractors to rebuild. > > But the Bush regime spent the money on Haliburton and Blackwater (and > many other US firms) instead of spending the money in Iraq. From a > taxpaper point of view, it means that a lotof the money actually stays > in the USA and until Haliburton moves its headquarters to Dubai, it > still pays taxes to the USA government. However, it doesn't actually > do anything to help rebuild Iraq. > Regarding the previous paragraph: This is how about 90% (casual empricism) of all foreign aid is done. Building infrastructure using contractors who are accountable to the ministry supplying the money, is the only viable method of infrastructure construction projects in 3rd world countries - period. Anyone who has ever worked in this area knows this, and so do the governments footing the bill as international aid. Your suggestion to "throw money" at local (in this case Iraqi) comnpanies and expect something to actually get built is ludicrous, and would be equally ludicrous in about 100+ other countries I can name. Feel free to do some research on this matter, and you will discover that while contractors can and do employ local suppliers, labourers, sub-contractors etc, the infrastructure aid project contracts invariably go to a prime contractor from the donating coutry. The reasons for this are so palpably obvious that I will not list them here. That Iraqis want to blow up the infrastructure that the US companies have attempted to (re)construct says something about Iraq and the people who live there, not about Haliburton, Blackwater or Uncle Sam. In the anarchy that invariably follows the demise of despotic regimes, there are always lots of "committed" individuals ready to continue the destruction to further their own power agendas. Iraq is no different here. The question as to whether the US should have precipitated the demise of the despotic regime is outside the scope of this response, and irrelevant. FYI: I have first hand experience and knowledge of this business, generally, and specifically relating to Iraq, gained through previous employment http://www.un.org/esa/sustdev/sdissues/energy/op/iraq1.htm. You really have no clue what you are saying here. Dweeb. > Anyone who has read the newamericancentury.org 1998 memo will know > that everything that has happened since 9-11 had been planned in > advance. 9-11 was the convenient terrorist attack that allows > Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz to implement their agenda. That included > killing the deal with North Korea (which was spun into North Korea not > respecting the deal). Note that "Axis of evil" was actially coined in > that 1998 memo. > > You'll also note that following 9-11, Iran had made great advances in > normalising relations with USA and helped secure borders in > Afghanistan etc. But in order to implement the 1998 plan which had > already labeled Iran as part of the axis of evil, the USA simply > found some ship with arms bound for Palestine and accused Iran of > sending arms to Palestinians, and voila, Iran is instantly back in > the list of bad guys. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:18:13 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <46366a02$0$7611$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> Bill Todd wrote: > Dan O'Reilly wrote: > > ... > >> I'll tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what they're >> doing. > > As with most generalizations, that's flat-out wrong. I don't know > exactly what percentage believe in what they're doing (many reports > indicate that it's a rather low one, which would hardly be > surprising), but one need only visit sites like http://www.ivaw.org/ > and http://www.vaiw.org to see that at least a significant number > believe nothing exactly the opposite. It's probably safe to say that > a majority think that there's no real reason they should be where > they are, even if they're willing to suck it up and do their jobs. > >> And I'll tell you another secret: what's going on in Iraq isn't what >> is being reported by the likes of PBS and Bill Moyers - or NBC, CBS >> or ABC, for that matter. > > Indeed, all our media sanitize the situation and fail to raise > anything like the criticism that it merits. Foreign media are a much > more reliable source. > Bill, I really wish you would stop claiming the superiority/objectivity of foreign media. Those of us who read it and are exposed to it every day of our lives know that your assertion is unfounded. Large portions of the european media took it upon itself to stop GWB from being elected and has been openly hostile since. When that failed (GWB got elected), they tried to insure he would be a one-term president. Having failed in that, the current thrust seems to be, well who knows, anything other than something approaching the facts seems acceptable. Now whether I personally like GWB, his presidency, or his personal relationship with God is irrelevant here. The only impression I can draw from reading european/foreign media (and I read more than one language and regularly from Oceania, Asia and Europe) is that the European media hates GWB, his presidency and his personal relationship with God (I think) and have become more and more shrill about it as their attempts to bring him down have been unsuccessful. I think many European journalists are genuinely puzzled that Americans have not listened to them and booted GWB out. I know you are bitter and twisted and hate everything that America has become and say so at every possible opportunity (as is you prerogative), however your credibilty takes a hit if you think that the BBC, DR, ARD, SKY. The Daily Mirror, The Independent, Le Figaro or whatever etc. etc are in any abstract way more reliable and objective about any specific issue. It is simply not true. They are equally bad, and with respect to GWB, they have a clear long running agenda - which just happens to be the same as yours. Dweeb. clip ... > > - bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:21:00 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <46366aa9$0$7610$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > BobH wrote: >> lines. What do you do? If you are in Lieutenant Calley's unit and >> he tells you to shoot people and says that he is following the >> orders of his immediate superior, what do you do? The presumption >> has to be that your commander's orders are legal, even though you as >> an individual may not understand why it should be done, or agree >> with the order. > > > The problem is that the higher up guys protect themselves. When grunts > were told to torture Iraqis, and some other grunt filmed and > photographed everything and that media was help by the military for > quite a long time. Many people knew torture had happened, nothing had > happened. Hence, there would have been many senior people who > essentially condoned itl. But when the media got the story and access > to those tapes, only the grunts were charged and the USA public were > told this was an isolated incident. > > Later on, Condi Rice defended those secret prisons with a very > qualified "No american personel performed torture since 2005". > > This implied that prior to 2005 they did, and implies that post 2005, > the actual torture was performed by contractors and/or fireigners on > behalf of americans. > > Yet, only 2 grunts have been charged with torture, even though it is > quite clear to the rest of the world that the "get information at any > cost and make sure I have deniability" came from very high within the > white house. > > > So, when the poor kid only obeys orders without challenging illegal > ones, when the shit hits the fan, he gets blamed for the actions, and > his superiors get away with it because they claim the grunt acted > independatly against their orders. > > If you're expected to blindly obey orders, then the military justice > system should also blindly charge a superior whenever grunts make > mistakes. Great, JF is now an expert on Military jurisprudence. Dweeb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:25:00 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <46366b9a$0$7611$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> TheBagbournes wrote: > Dan O'Reilly wrote: >> At 08:05 PM 4/26/2007, David J Dachtera wrote: >>> Dan O'Reilly wrote: >>>> [snip] >>> >>> Aw, Dan! I alway had such respect for you as a technical person... >> >> Well, let me put it this way: I come from a military family. My >> son-in-law, a sergeant in the Army (the father of my grandchildren), >> is getting ready to deploy to Iraq for his second year-long tour >> there. I'll tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what >> they're doing. And I'll tell you another secret: what's going on in >> Iraq isn't what is being reported by the likes of PBS and Bill >> Moyers - or NBC, CBS or ABC, for that matter. And one more secret: >> these kids hate what they see being reported by the media in >> general, realizing that the media simply isn't telling the whole >> story or even a correct one. The left of the world has such >> blinding, unreasoning, vitriolic hate for Bush that they never let >> little things like the facts get in their way. This whole BS of "I >> support the troops but not the mission" is exactly that: BS. Or put >> another way: "I support fireman, just not them putting out a fire" - >> just as ridiculous a statement. Do I wish my son-in-law didn't have to go >> back in harm's way? Sure >> I do - but I'm as proud of him as I can be. Do I agree with >> everything the Bush administration has done? No, I don't. But I >> believe in what we're doing, and I believe in my country. That's >> good enough for me. Whether or not anybody else believes as I do is >> immaterial, and is a personal choice everybody is allowed to make. > > But Dan, "our side" kicked off that war which unleashed those > horrible things. Horrible things were happenning a long time before the war got "kicked off". Now the perps are well armed, loose cannons targetting locals as well as US military and happy to die for the joy of it, rather than a well organised and financed set of thugs targetting locals. My guess is that civillians killed by Iraqi insurgent bombs exceeds US military deaths - but am willing to be corrected. Dweeb > We sent our troops off to kick up what all sensible people knew was a > hornet's nest! And now it attracts every resentful, fundamentalist > nutjob who just wants to inflict harm on western interests. Real nice > job of making the world safer! > I'm by no means "of the left", but politicians use historic events as > excuses to further their own ends. Particularly if those politicians > also have business interests in the business of war. > The whole thing stank to high heaven from the very beginning. > >> That's good enough for me.... > > Don't let politicians tell you what to think! ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 22:33:00 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <59n94sF2lamr6U1@mid.individual.net> In article <46366aa9$0$7610$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > JF Mezei wrote: >> BobH wrote: >>> lines. What do you do? If you are in Lieutenant Calley's unit and >>> he tells you to shoot people and says that he is following the >>> orders of his immediate superior, what do you do? The presumption >>> has to be that your commander's orders are legal, even though you as >>> an individual may not understand why it should be done, or agree >>> with the order. >> >> >> The problem is that the higher up guys protect themselves. When grunts >> were told to torture Iraqis, and some other grunt filmed and >> photographed everything and that media was help by the military for >> quite a long time. Many people knew torture had happened, nothing had >> happened. Hence, there would have been many senior people who >> essentially condoned itl. But when the media got the story and access >> to those tapes, only the grunts were charged and the USA public were >> told this was an isolated incident. >> >> Later on, Condi Rice defended those secret prisons with a very >> qualified "No american personel performed torture since 2005". >> >> This implied that prior to 2005 they did, and implies that post 2005, >> the actual torture was performed by contractors and/or fireigners on >> behalf of americans. >> >> Yet, only 2 grunts have been charged with torture, even though it is >> quite clear to the rest of the world that the "get information at any >> cost and make sure I have deniability" came from very high within the >> white house. >> >> >> So, when the poor kid only obeys orders without challenging illegal >> ones, when the shit hits the fan, he gets blamed for the actions, and >> his superiors get away with it because they claim the grunt acted >> independatly against their orders. >> >> If you're expected to blindly obey orders, then the military justice >> system should also blindly charge a superior whenever grunts make >> mistakes. > > Great, JF is now an expert on Military jurisprudence. Especially when you figure he is, as usual, wrong. Soldiers are not expected to "blindly obey orders". They are taught what is and is not a lawful order. And they are mos definitely taught what the consequences are for doing the wrong thing. Just as I have been well schooled in what the consequences would be if I gave an unlawful order. My personal experience ranges from being a private in the 60's thru being an NCO in the 70's and 80's and early 2000's to now being an officer. "I vas chust following orders" didn't work at Nuremburg and it certainly won't work now. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 22:37:37 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <59n9dhF2lamr6U2@mid.individual.net> In article <46366a02$0$7611$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > Bill Todd wrote: >> Dan O'Reilly wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> I'll tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what they're >>> doing. >> >> As with most generalizations, that's flat-out wrong. I don't know >> exactly what percentage believe in what they're doing (many reports >> indicate that it's a rather low one, which would hardly be >> surprising), but one need only visit sites like http://www.ivaw.org/ >> and http://www.vaiw.org to see that at least a significant number >> believe nothing exactly the opposite. It's probably safe to say that >> a majority think that there's no real reason they should be where >> they are, even if they're willing to suck it up and do their jobs. >> >>> And I'll tell you another secret: what's going on in Iraq isn't what >>> is being reported by the likes of PBS and Bill Moyers - or NBC, CBS >>> or ABC, for that matter. >> >> Indeed, all our media sanitize the situation and fail to raise >> anything like the criticism that it merits. Foreign media are a much >> more reliable source. >> > > Bill, > > I really wish you would stop claiming the superiority/objectivity of foreign > media. Those of us who read it and are exposed to it every day of our lives > know that your assertion is unfounded. What, you mean that German paper I brought back wth me is wrong!! There aren't Martians living inside of Mars. I am so disappointed. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:50:42 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > "I vas chust following orders" didn't work at Nuremburg and it certainly > won't work now. It worked for the american grunts who were charged with torture at Abu Graib and the US government/army refused to follow the trail up the chain to find out who had condoned those actions, who had held onto the video tapes and had done nothing of it. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 18:48:34 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177954107.703760.69820 @l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: > On Apr 30, 10:25 am, Dirk Munk wrote: >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote: >> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery >> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a >> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the >> > pictures and video ... >> >> >http://www.arkfever.com/ >> >> This time Boob is right. What you see on the pictures is the stern of >> the ark. On it they found the inscription "Noahs Ark - Monrovia" in >> Hebrew. That proofs Boob is not mistaken this time. > > it would be nice to be able to dig all of it out > and confirm it, but when you find a 400 foot > boat made out of gofer wood in the mountain > ranges of Ararat, you seriously need to consider > it ... esp. with petrified sea shells around it ... I feel sorry for the sea shells. I'd feel petrified too if I lived near something that attracted people like you. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:24:39 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote: > On Apr 30, 10:25 am, Dirk Munk wrote: >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote: >>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery >>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a >>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the >>> pictures and video ... >>> http://www.arkfever.com/ >> This time Boob is right. What you see on the pictures is the stern of >> the ark. On it they found the inscription "Noahs Ark - Monrovia" in >> Hebrew. That proofs Boob is not mistaken this time. > > it would be nice to be able to dig all of it out > and confirm it, but when you find a 400 foot > boat made out of gofer wood in the mountain > ranges of Ararat, you seriously need to consider > it ... esp. with petrified sea shells around it ... > Dear Boob, You can find petrified sea shells on mountains all over the world. That is because of the movement of the tectonic plates. The plates collide with each other, and on some places mountains appear because one of the plates is pushed upwards by the other. That is the reason you can find these petrified sea shells on great heights in the mountains. I suppose this should be high school knowledge ??? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 21:32:29 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <59n5jdF2lae26U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Dirk Munk writes: > genius@marblecliff.com wrote: >> On Apr 30, 10:25 am, Dirk Munk wrote: >>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote: >>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery >>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a >>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the >>>> pictures and video ... >>>> http://www.arkfever.com/ >>> This time Boob is right. What you see on the pictures is the stern of >>> the ark. On it they found the inscription "Noahs Ark - Monrovia" in >>> Hebrew. That proofs Boob is not mistaken this time. >> >> it would be nice to be able to dig all of it out >> and confirm it, but when you find a 400 foot >> boat made out of gofer wood in the mountain >> ranges of Ararat, you seriously need to consider >> it ... esp. with petrified sea shells around it ... >> > Dear Boob, > > You can find petrified sea shells on mountains all over the world. That > is because of the movement of the tectonic plates. The plates collide > with each other, and on some places mountains appear because one of the > plates is pushed upwards by the other. That is the reason you can find > these petrified sea shells on great heights in the mountains. I suppose > this should be high school knowledge ??? Ice Caves Mountain, Ellenville, NY. Used to be on the bottom of the ocean. Has a lake on the top of the mountain that is really interesting. It is really just a bowl in the rock on the top of the mountain. Being rock no plants grow in it. Not having plants means no free oxygen. No free oxygen means animals like fish can not live in it either. It is totally barren, even though it has even been tried seeding it with fish and stuff. I miss the many visits I made to the top of that mountain to maintain my Packet Repeater site. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:16:25 -0700 From: "John Gemignani, Jr." Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: "Dr. Dweeb" wrote in message news:46365a15$0$7609$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk... > genius@marblecliff.com wrote: >> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery >> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a >> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the >> pictures and video ... >> >> http://www.arkfever.com/ > > Did any of you huys actually read that article or look at the pictures in > large size? > > It's just a rocky outcrop that looks a bit like logs - nothing more or > less. > > A testimony to the human mind's evolutionarily hardcoded predilection for > seeing patterns in everything. > It is about as likely to actually be the Ark, as the smoke from 9/11 was > actually the image of satan. WHAT? It's NOT the image of Satan? Damn. There goes the star of my photo collection. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:23:09 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: In article , Dirk Munk writes: >genius@marblecliff.com wrote: >> On Apr 30, 10:25 am, Dirk Munk wrote: >>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote: >>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery >>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a >>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the >>>> pictures and video ... >>>> http://www.arkfever.com/ >>> This time Boob is right. What you see on the pictures is the stern of >>> the ark. On it they found the inscription "Noahs Ark - Monrovia" in >>> Hebrew. That proofs Boob is not mistaken this time. >> >> it would be nice to be able to dig all of it out >> and confirm it, but when you find a 400 foot >> boat made out of gofer wood in the mountain >> ranges of Ararat, you seriously need to consider >> it ... esp. with petrified sea shells around it ... >> >Dear Boob, > >You can find petrified sea shells on mountains all over the world. That >is because of the movement of the tectonic plates. The plates collide >with each other, and on some places mountains appear because one of the >plates is pushed upwards by the other. That is the reason you can find >these petrified sea shells on great heights in the mountains. I suppose >this should be high school knowledge ??? Unfortunately Boob doesn't believe in sciences such as Geology and hence doesn't believe in tectonic plates and mountain building. Such processes take much too long - He believes the Earth isn't old enough. Hence the Earth is exactly how it was when God created it apart from the effects of the flood - except for those pesky earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc (and of course Man's activity eg cutting canals in Suez and Panama, damming rivers etc ). Since the Earth hasn't changed and in particular mountains haven't risen up then if you find sea shells on the Mountains the only possible explanation is that there was a worldwide flood. There isn't enough water. Doesn't matter - this was God's Flood. God can do whatever he wants. But then if God can do whatever he wants then maybe there wasn't a flood since he could just have sprinkled seashells on the mountain tops. Or maybe he even caused the mountains to rise overnight. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 18:07:57 -0700 From: David B Sneddon Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <1177981677.463205.103680@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 30, 9:10 pm, "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > > Did any of you huys actually read that article or look at the pictures in > large size? > > It's just a rocky outcrop that looks a bit like logs - nothing more or less. > > A testimony to the human mind's evolutionarily hardcoded predilection for > seeing patterns in everything. > It is about as likely to actually be the Ark, as the smoke from 9/11 was > actually the image of satan. > > Dweeb I checked out the website... FECK ME! I'm convinced. The pictures did it for me. (Mind you the story was really nice too.) Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:34:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <46b4e$46369966$cef8887a$5272@TEKSAVVY.COM> This just in: Initial scans and excavation work around Noah's Ark have revealed that Noah used an Alpha server running VMS with software to hold the database of all animals and their original location. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 18:30:21 -0700 From: Sue Subject: OpenVMS Advanced Technical Boot Camp Attendance update Message-ID: <1177983021.141306.240950@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, I sent the attached out earlier today the number of available seats is now under 50 but I wanted to keep you posted and I also have to add Australia as a country on the list we also have a person coming from Malysia but they have not officially registered yet. Sue ---------------------- Dear Distribution lists, I am pleased to send you the following Boot Camp update. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/symposium/index.html Please note that the hotel registration has been extended until May 10th. ****All Pre Week Seminars are full. Current Boot Camp Stats are as follows Available Seats 55 out of 200 remaining this includes 5 outstanding scholarships that have not been awarded yet. If you wonder if you are registered just send me email. Countries Represented (in no order) Spain 1 Hungary 1 Greece 1 Germany 11 Netherlands 7 Sweden 15 England 5 Ireland 1 Canada 6 France 1 (I know that there are 2 but there is a problem with the registration) Austria 3 Belgium 1 US all the rest Attendees: Please note if you are traveling from Europe: Be sure you check the pricing for flights to Boston as well as to Manchester. Otherwise you might not only spend an extra nine hours traveling and waiting for a connection, but you could also spend more than $200 above the price of a non-stop flight to Boston just to see another airport. Many of the airlines seem to route folks through Philadelphia and Washington DC which is not even close and include for the extra $200 a few extra hours in the airport. Dress is casual for this event - blue jeans and a shirt are fine Sue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:06:32 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: OT: Kodak Nipping at HP's heels Message-ID: <4636AEB8.F977CAD2@spam.comcast.net> http://www.dailyherald.com/business/story.asp?id=307641 This link is good about seven days from 30-Apr-2007. After that, I might post the complete text of the article. With Kodak challenging HP in the printer market, and HP giving up in the HealthCare Enterprise sector, the HP shareholders in this group may wish to reconsider their holdings and position. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 14:41:44 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: SET Security question Message-ID: In article <1177945890.857955.44040@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, BaxterD@tessco.com writes: > On Apr 30, 9:01 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> In article , Dave Froble writes: >> >> > In this case, it's SYSPRV that would allow access to files using the >> > SYSTEM masks. With BYPASS, you would be correct. >> >> Or GRPPRV, or a low UIC. > > another approach which I believe would keep out everyone (except for > bypass and readall, and perhaps security) Actually, the SECURITY privilege is not directly involved in access control. It is involved in controlling VMS auditing, to collect the evidence (or not). Other uses of the SECURITY privilege are: Control intrusion detection and breakin evasion Set the system password Enable protected subsystems on a volume Control the ACME server And trivially Enable and disable a terminal as a Security Operator ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 18:45:56 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: SNMP agent Message-ID: apogeusistemas@gmail.com wrote in news:1177948068.792204.119340@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: > On 30 abr, 10:44, "Richard Whalen" wrote: >> MultiNet and TCPware both include a SNMP Agent on VAX/VMS >> 5.5-2 wrote in message >> >> news:1177861568.522575.16050@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> > Hi: >> > Is there any snmp agent to VAX?VMS 5.5-2 ? >> >> > Thanks.- Ocultar texto entre aspas - >> >> - Mostrar texto entre aspas - > > Is possible get W2K informations (like FS use, temperature, services, > etc) > issuing a SNMP command from VMs to W2K ? If the Windows system supports reporting the detail, the VMS system can ask for the current value. SNMP isn't a magic piece of software, you need to set it up to collect the information you're interested in. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 14:09:46 -0700 From: Rambo Subject: Re: Three HP Websites Ranked Among World's Best for Online Support Message-ID: <1177967386.504053.303150@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Apr 30, 2:33 pm, Ian Miller wrote: > http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=n... > > "Recognizing HP's commitment to providing relevant help and support > information for consumer and enterprise customers around the world, [snip] > mmm... They don't mention how hard it is to find things on hp web > sites sometimes Well, in all fairness, While HP staff might be a bunch of jerks most of the time, I've just rebuilt my respect for HP online support. There's already Tru64 5.1B-4 media (possibly) coming my was and I haven't paid a squat for it, and support people were really kind, very competent and really OK to work with on solutions. Rambo ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 14:24:55 -0700 From: a.drew7@gmail.com Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Message-ID: <1177968295.318473.5170@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> > As others have pointed out, it seems to be a memory problem. > > MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE PROPERLY EARTHED! > > Then, open the box, CAREFULLY remove the cards, vacuum the thing out > (doesn't have to be with a VAX!) and replace the cards. I've had memory > problems solved just by cleaning. Cleaned out the case good (there was hardly any dust in there anyway) Upon further examination, I have an 8MB module and a 4MB module, where the 4 piggy-backs on the 8 for a total of 12MB. I tried each memory board again, both alone and together, still no go. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:42:33 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Message-ID: <07043016423364_202002DA@antinode.org> From: a.drew7@gmail.com > Upon further examination, I have an 8MB module and a 4MB module, where > the 4 piggy-backs on the 8 for a total of 12MB. > I tried each memory board again, both alone and together, still no go. It's been a long time, but isn't there some on-board memory in these things? Have you tried it with no add-on memory? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 00:08:33 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Message-ID: Steven M. Schweda schrieb: > It's been a long time, but isn't there some on-board memory in these > things? Have you tried it with no add-on memory? > My 3138 has a piggyback module labelled "4/8 MB", whereas the console tells me the machine has 16MB. This suggests 4MB onboard, or ? The follow-ups, VAXstations 4000-60/90 have 8MB on-board, IIRC, so one can run the console w/o any extra memory. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:24:08 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Message-ID: <07043017240875_202002DA@antinode.org> From: Michael Kraemer > My 3138 has a piggyback module labelled "4/8 MB", > whereas the console tells me the machine has 16MB. > This suggests 4MB onboard, or ? Sounds right to me. I also found a local copy of a PDF file, "VAXstation 3100 Maintenance Guide Addendum Models 38 & 48" ("Order Number EK-344AA-AD-001") lying around, and it says: "[...] main memory in the system including the 4 megabytes on the system module. [...]" A Google search for that Order Number hints at: http://deathrow.vistech.net/~cvisors/DEC94MDS/344aaad1.pdf which may be where I got mine. No bets. That, and other interesting stuff seems to be available at: http://deathrow.vistech.net/~cvisors/DEC94MDS/ That Guide Addendum I found describes the memory diagnostics in some detail, but if the thing can't get through "TEST B", it may be in trouble too deep for mere information to help much. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:16:10 -0400 From: "Ray" Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38 Message-ID: "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message news:f15pah$j9b$01$1@news.t-online.com... > Steven M. Schweda schrieb: > > It's been a long time, but isn't there some on-board memory in these > > things? Have you tried it with no add-on memory? > > > > My 3138 has a piggyback module labelled "4/8 MB", > whereas the console tells me the machine has 16MB. > This suggests 4MB onboard, or ? > The follow-ups, VAXstations 4000-60/90 > have 8MB on-board, IIRC, so one can run the console > w/o any extra memory. VAXstation 3100 model 38 systems have 4MB on board. There were four different memory options. Pass-through cards came in 8MB (MS42-KA) and 16MB (MS42-CA). Non-passthrough cards came in 12MB (MS42-BA) and 4MB (MS42-AB). Maximum memory was 32MB, when you used a 12 and a 16 plus the 4 on-board. If you are getting a memory error with no cards inserted, that would tend to point to the on-board memory. If it won't POST with no memory cards inserted, then you're most likely looking at a motherboard problem. The model 48 used the same motherboard as the model 38, just in a bigger case. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 2007 12:24:30 -0700 From: John Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Message-ID: <1177961070.805326.244420@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Apr 30, 12:27 pm, Rich Jordan wrote: > On Apr 30, 1:57 am, H Vlems wrote: > > On 28 apr, 08:17, John wrote: > > Yep, it needs to be in its stand and vertical, with the fan at the top > so convection helps keep it cool. If you don't have a stand improvise > something to hold it vertical with that fan on top. Running flat will > kill it; there's a sensitive and failure prone chip on the bottom of > the main logic board that will fry itself. > > You can do a few more things to help it stay cool and survive longer; > I did them on mine way back when and the boxes would run for weeks at > time without problem. > Rich Thanks for the info. The previous owner, a sysadmin here at RIT, had apparently known about the heat problem and replaced the standard fan with a much beefier one. Heat *shouldn't* be too much of an issue, especially since I intent to use an external hard drive enclosure. John ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.237 ************************