INFO-VAX Thu, 10 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 255 Contents: Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Re: detect unaligned data access Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) earthquake hits Montana! Re: earthquake hits Montana! Re: earthquake hits Montana! Re: Seeking Terminal Server Manager (TSM) manuals Re: Seeking Terminal Server Manager (TSM) manuals Re: Seeking Terminal Server Manager (TSM) manuals Re: Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Re: Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Re: tukwila hits iceberg! What was it Gomer Pile used to say? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 May 2007 12:53:45 -0700 From: twnews@kittles.com Subject: Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Message-ID: <1178740424.923730.119280@e51g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> news.hp.com wrote: > Doc wrote: >> Is "Peronal Alpha" an Alpha emulator? > > Yes. See http://personalalpha.com/ (which points to > http://www.emulatorsinternational.com/en/personalalpha.htm) I have been promising my 13 year old son that I would get him VMS at home soon. I hooked him on DCL with DCL Lite a year ago. The problem that I have run into is that I have zero budget to set this up, and putting even a free Alpha in the house at this time is not a good idea. I was looking at the Simh/Hobbyist program combo, but for several reasons I would rather simulate Alpha than VAX. My question is does Personal Alpha work well? It does not need to be fast, but it does need to run consistently without major problems. I like the idea of VMS at home to play with, but I am not looking for a second job supporting a not ready for prime time emulator. Any testimonials or personal experiences running VMS on Personal Alpha on Windows? The documentation on the Website makes it look a lot easier than Simh for getting started. TIA Thomas Wirt Director of IS Kittle's Home Furnishings Indianapolis, IN ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 12:54:16 -0700 From: twnews@kittles.com Subject: Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Message-ID: <1178740456.792359.253520@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> news.hp.com wrote: > Doc wrote: >> Is "Peronal Alpha" an Alpha emulator? > > Yes. See http://personalalpha.com/ (which points to > http://www.emulatorsinternational.com/en/personalalpha.htm) I have been promising my 13 year old son that I would get him VMS at home soon. I hooked him on DCL with DCL Lite a year ago. The problem that I have run into is that I have zero budget to set this up, and putting even a free Alpha in the house at this time is not a good idea. I was looking at the Simh/Hobbyist program combo, but for several reasons I would rather simulate Alpha than VAX. My question is does Personal Alpha work well? It does not need to be fast, but it does need to run consistently without major problems. I like the idea of VMS at home to play with, but I am not looking for a second job supporting a not ready for prime time emulator. Any testimonials or personal experiences running VMS on Personal Alpha on Windows? The documentation on the Website makes it look a lot easier than Simh for getting started. TIA Thomas Wirt Director of IS Kittle's Home Furnishings Indianapolis, IN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 22:18:48 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Message-ID: <46422ca9$0$16953$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 9-5-2007 21:54 twnews@kittles.com wrote... > My question is does Personal Alpha work well? It does not need to be > fast, but it does need to run consistently without major problems. I > like the idea of VMS at home to play with, but I am not looking for a > second job supporting a not ready for prime time emulator. Any > testimonials or personal experiences running VMS on Personal Alpha on > Windows? Yes. I have been using it for personal research and general programming since it first came out. It has never once failed me. As retold somewhere in this newsgroup, I built all SIMH emulators on Personal Alpha, and even got SIMH PDP-11 with RSTS/E to run on top of it. It's reliable, and as you say easy to set up and use. For the purpose you mention, I'd say it is extremely well suited. Wilm Boerhout ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:19:16 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: A jihad on the Hobbyist programme ? Message-ID: <46427311$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Wilm Boerhout wrote: > On 9 mei, 07:16, Wilm Boerhout wrote: > >> May I should worry first about getting .NET 2.0 to run under Wine. > > Indeed I should. > > "wine dotnetfx.exe" fails gracefully after reporting it can only be > installed when it finds IE 5.01 already installed. > > I couldn't find an IE 5.01 kit, but downloaded an IE 6 SP 1 kit. It > crashed horribly. Anyone ever install *any* Internet Explorer under > wine 0.9.36? 5.01 is here http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/5.01 But you may have started a long hard journey. I have never been able to install .NET runtime and SDK without installing IIS first. The principle of unzipping a ZIP in a dir and then it can be started is not the Microsoft way. Arne ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 11:05:10 -0700 From: jbigboote Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <1178733910.224996.16790@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Ah yes, I stand corrected, thanks. So if I'm a VMS Cerner customer and want to upgrade, I have to buy new hardware and port, no matter what. They are just giving IBM more opportunities. On May 9, 12:54 pm, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: > In article <1178732104.427768.224...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, jbigboote writes: > > >Too bad Cerner decided to drop VMS and replace it with HP-UX. If I'm > >an existing Cerner client looking to port from VMS, and my choices are > >AIX or HP-UX, why would I choose HP-UX? Maybe because I already have > >Alpha servers, which can run HP-UX, > > Try again. > Alphas run DEC-OSF1^WDigital-UNIX^WTru64-UNIX (and *BSD, Linux) but not HPsUX. > > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER > Network and OpenVMS system specialist > E-mail p...@langstoeger.at > A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 13:33:05 -0700 From: twnews@kittles.com Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <1178742785.704890.237800@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> news.hp.com wrote: > David Turner, Island Computers wrote: >> Even HP tells me they are quiet. > > Are you sure you didn't misunderstand, and they actually said "We're in > the 'quiet period'" (as always happens for the month before quarterly > results are announced)? > > I don't have any access to sales figures, but I've noticed a progression > of thinking as I've talked with customers over the past year or so: > > Introduction of Montecito-based systems to have put away the majority of > worries about performance. > > Sufficient notice has apparently been given of the last-sale dates (and > then, possibly to the relief of those who faced unforeseen circumstances > or simply procrastinated, there was a 6-month extension). > > Procuring Alpha boxes started to be perceived more and more by the > management at customer companies as a dead-end route, while the purchase > of Integrity Servers was perceived as being more in tune with future > directions for OpenVMS. > > Integrity Servers turned out to be much less expensive, both to procure > and to maintain. > > Porting for so many folks has proven to be relatively painless. And > major software like Oracle Server that might have been been holding some > folks back is now available. > ... That is basicly the case for us. 2 years ago (and 4 years before that) we were looking to get 3 or 4 used ES40/45 to upgrade our cluster of AS4100's. The money never came through so we were left waiting. about 14 months ago we decided that we would look at 4 new 2620 instead. In the final analysis, the cost will probably be a wash, but we feel the 2620 will give us a performance boost and possibly a lower TCO. We could be wrong, but that is what and how we decided. It is worth noting, that while we have a 2620 from a porting workshop, we are still waiting for approval on the hardware upgrade. :) Thomas Wirt Director of IS Kittle's Home Furnishings ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 13:37:43 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <1178743063.278455.53250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 8, 1:34 pm, "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: > Curious... > Even HP tells me they are quiet. > I can't believe everyone has stopped buying Alpha systems just because of > discontinuation > > DT > > -- > David B Turner > Island Computers US Corp > 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 > Savannah GA 31404 > > T: 877-6364332 x201 > Intl: 001 912 447 6622 > > E: dtur...@islandco.com > F: 912 201 0402 > W:http://www.islandco.com David, I suspect that there is a good chance that what you are seeing is the same effect that was seen to some extent during 2000. When there is a hard deadline for purchases (e.g., major price or availability change, incentives, etc.) there is often a fratricide effect. Organizations and people push transactions into the pipeline to get the advantage of the deal or availability. Following the cutoff, there is a gap until the pipeline of transactions recovers its equilibrium. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:55:55 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: Would it be of interest to know that you could replace all 4 AS4100's with 4 x AS ES45 for less than$40,000 total? I'll bet that you couldn't get 4 x 2620 for that. And that is for a system with 2 cpu each, 3 x p/s + other bits and pieces if interested email me or call me David wrote in message news:1178742785.704890.237800@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > news.hp.com wrote: >> David Turner, Island Computers wrote: >>> Even HP tells me they are quiet. >> >> Are you sure you didn't misunderstand, and they actually said "We're in >> the 'quiet period'" (as always happens for the month before quarterly >> results are announced)? >> >> I don't have any access to sales figures, but I've noticed a progression >> of thinking as I've talked with customers over the past year or so: >> >> Introduction of Montecito-based systems to have put away the majority of >> worries about performance. >> >> Sufficient notice has apparently been given of the last-sale dates (and >> then, possibly to the relief of those who faced unforeseen circumstances >> or simply procrastinated, there was a 6-month extension). >> >> Procuring Alpha boxes started to be perceived more and more by the >> management at customer companies as a dead-end route, while the purchase >> of Integrity Servers was perceived as being more in tune with future >> directions for OpenVMS. >> >> Integrity Servers turned out to be much less expensive, both to procure >> and to maintain. >> >> Porting for so many folks has proven to be relatively painless. And >> major software like Oracle Server that might have been been holding some >> folks back is now available. >> ... > > That is basicly the case for us. 2 years ago (and 4 years before > that) we were looking to get 3 or 4 used ES40/45 to upgrade our > cluster of AS4100's. The money never came through so we were left > waiting. about 14 months ago we decided that we would look at 4 new > 2620 instead. In the final analysis, the cost will probably be a > wash, but we feel the 2620 will give us a performance boost and > possibly a lower TCO. We could be wrong, but that is what and how we > decided. > > It is worth noting, that while we have a 2620 from a porting workshop, > we are still waiting for approval on the hardware upgrade. :) > > Thomas Wirt > Director of IS > Kittle's Home Furnishings > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:57:12 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <2dt0i.4$O9.3@bignews7.bellsouth.net> Well, good news is it has picked up this week bad news is we are still down about 30% over last year. There are some very tasty deals to be had right now. DT "Bob Gezelter" wrote in message news:1178743063.278455.53250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > On May 8, 1:34 pm, "David Turner, Island Computers" islandco.com> wrote: >> Curious... >> Even HP tells me they are quiet. >> I can't believe everyone has stopped buying Alpha systems just because of >> discontinuation >> >> DT >> >> -- >> David B Turner >> Island Computers US Corp >> 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 >> Savannah GA 31404 >> >> T: 877-6364332 x201 >> Intl: 001 912 447 6622 >> >> E: dtur...@islandco.com >> F: 912 201 0402 >> W:http://www.islandco.com > > David, > > I suspect that there is a good chance that what you are seeing is the > same effect that was seen to some extent during 2000. > > When there is a hard deadline for purchases (e.g., major price or > availability change, incentives, etc.) there is often a fratricide > effect. Organizations and people push transactions into the pipeline > to get the advantage of the deal or availability. Following the > cutoff, there is a gap until the pipeline of transactions recovers its > equilibrium. > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:31:39 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <8431d$464267fa$cef8887a$2277@TEKSAVVY.COM> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: > Well, good news is it has picked up this week > bad news is we are still down about 30% over last year. > There are some very tasty deals to be had right now. Does this mean you will soon start to draw free ES45s to be won by someone in the comp.os.vms.community ? :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 19:51:35 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Message-ID: <00A675DA.62D7BB5F@SendSpamHere.ORG> Is there a PAKGEN update which will recognise the IA64 option for Alpha? I know a party that has no in house Itanium box but needs to create PAKs for an Itanium product they sell. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 17:54:12 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Message-ID: In article <00A675DA.62D7BB5F@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > Is there a PAKGEN update which will recognise the IA64 option for Alpha? > > I know a party that has no in house Itanium box but needs to create PAKs > for an Itanium product they sell. I believe you need to get a replacement for your PAKgen PAK to make the Alpha PAKgen be able to do this. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 23:40:13 GMT From: "John Vottero" Subject: Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Message-ID: "Larry Kilgallen" wrote in message news:um+t5Hp0ExJQ@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <00A675DA.62D7BB5F@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> Is there a PAKGEN update which will recognise the IA64 option for Alpha? >> >> I know a party that has no in house Itanium box but needs to create PAKs >> for an Itanium product they sell. > > I believe you need to get a replacement for your PAKgen PAK to make > the Alpha PAKgen be able to do this. Even with a new PAK, you can't create IA64 PAKs on an Alpha. DCL tables disallow it. I don't know if there's a reason. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 18:33:27 -0700 From: David B Sneddon Subject: Re: creating IA64 PAKs on Alpha Message-ID: <1178760807.008153.310520@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 9, 7:51 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > Is there a PAKGEN update which will recognise the IA64 option for Alpha? > > I know a party that has no in house Itanium box but needs to create PAKs > for an Itanium product they sell. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" The CLD on Alpha is deliberately broken to prevent the generation of IA64 PAKs. Grab a copy of the CLD from an IA64 box and use that one (SET COMMAND) on the Alpha to generate what you need. I had the same problem and checked the source for the CLDs and have been using this method for quite a while now. I can only assume the "reason" for this was to try to force people to buy an IA64 just to generate PAKs. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 13:33:14 -0700 From: Joshua Lehrer Subject: Re: detect unaligned data access Message-ID: <1178742794.599045.285740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 8, 4:57 pm, Jim Duff wrote: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/DOC/82final/5973/5973pro_023.html#sig_arg_v... > > I've updated my example code to demonstrate its usage. See here: > > http://www.eight-cubed.com/examples/framework.php?file=sys_align_faul... > Thanks. That works great. And thanks for all of your example code. -josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 10:52:31 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) Message-ID: On Wed, 09 May 2007 10:26:29 -0700, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> On Wed, 09 May 2007 04:56:18 -0700, Neil Rieck >> wrote: >>> Also, the majority of our software is large but not object oriented. >>> It has been my experience that the only way to properly do large OO >>> programming is with an IDE. OpenVMS engineering supports NetBeans for >>> OpenVMS program development and I think this is a good first step. >> There is no compelling reason to go to OO, at least not the way it is >> done. > > It's a tool. OO can be nasty, or it can be useful. There are some > OO IDE environments that allow faster coding. Yes, there are trade-offs > in image size and overhead from tasks such as garbage collection, etc. > OO and IDE can often help hit deployment -- and revenues -- quicker > than non-OO. Aim for the target, and pick the tools that allow you to > best and most quickly and most efficiently hit the target. > > >>> With regards to your PC comments, x86 was crappy and everyone outside >>> that world knows it. But Intel and AMD are morphing these products >>> into something closer to what Alpha already is. Some day very soon >>> (single years) there will be no real difference between x86-64 and >>> enterprise processors like Alpha, PA-RISC, and Itanium. Some bean >>> counter will then pull the plug on Itanium and we'll all be trapped on >>> another dead technology. > > Architectures historically come and go. Though x86-64 isn't known as > the most elegant of designs, it's ahead of x86-32. It'll be interesting > to see if (when?) there's a future generation that drops more of the > legacy cruft, or moves it off into some sort of emulation. And x86-64 > most certainly works. > > Itanium has various advantages over Alpha and over x86-32 and x86-64, > and in cases where OpenVMS is in use, it's the platform. (BTW, I dug up > the various RAS features lists a while back, and posted a summary at the > new web site. RAS features can exist within the processor, within in > the platform, and within the OS. And whether or not particular RAS > features are even a factor depends on your requirements and your > environment, and both can vary widely.) > > All RAS aside, the real question is one of the costs of upgrading and > the cost of staying on a static environment, and the cost of porting to > a new environment. These are not simple questions. Until you know > those costs and what benefits you might exist, there's no real fodder > here for discussion. > > Computer architectures are only good or bad in terms of costs and > revenues -- the technology itself is certainly interesting to discuss > and to debate, though there's been no shortage of dead elegance left > alongside the road to newer products. > >> The transition of Digital from a Hardware to a Software company is a far >> superior business model, and it has always baffled me that Digital >> management is incapable of grasping that. > > The question isn't hardware or software, it's the business model and > where you get current and where you expect future revenue from. Folks > in the upper echelon of a company have access to details and information > that other folks don't have. And some idea of what the trends for these > current and future revenue streams might be. > > Tom's business is software. Other folks sell software, or services, > or hardware -- and a mixture of these areas can be required to most > effectively sell the more profitable pieces of the puzzle. An x86-64 > or Itanium box is basically an expensive doorstop without the operating > system software and the requisite tools and application(s). In Tom's > case, it likely doesn't make sense to sell a server with his products. > There are cases and products where customers want a packaged solution. > > Stephen, the point I was trying to make is that there is very little added value in Digital's Hardware, the real asset is the software, specifically VMS. There are plenty of manufacturers of reliable hardware or reasonable performance, and it doesn't have to be the fastest, unless you are competing with the same software such as Windows or Linux, in which case you need something to give you an edge, and in this case that could only be performance and service. Indeed I would argue that management has squandered those assets in the several hardware transitions that have taken places resulting in the shedding of software and as a consequence customers. You don't have the be a Harvard B School graduate to recognize bad business decisions. In this business, introducing incompatible architectures is a no-no. You can still run 360 object modules under z/os. Alpha was a bad business decision and so is Itanium. > --- > > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > > And one wonders where all of the scalability and security issues are > > coming from these days? > > That varies. I've seen various really slick and highly scalable and > quite secure environments -- there's almost always more than one way to > solve a problem. And security is certainly one aspect and one > consideration, but there are others that are often equally important; > computers and applications are complex systems, and there are costs and > considerations all over the place, from managing the system and ECO kits > to security to anti-malware tools, etc. Then there are the discussions > of ROI -- computers are cool and fun, but we're here and using this gear > to resolve a business problem, or to produce revenue, or both. > > > > Much, much more to OO than just the IDE .. it is a major, major > > culture change that most shops do not realize until they really > > get into it. > > > > I would suggest the first question should be to understand the hype > > and really determine "is OO the best strategy for addressing the needs > > of my business?". > > Quite true. Backing it up further, you have to look at whether the > current applications meet the requirements, and if there are ways to > reduce costs or speed production, or to gain a competitive advantage. > It's the design, the application and then the stack. Further down, the > discussion of the implementation language. > > > Yes, there are benefits of OO in specific areas. > > Big time. > > On some boxes, parallel processing basically falls out of the design. > > > However, the re-training, code re-writing, integration with current > > code (never use the term legacy for proven code) and support > > complexity are also challenges that many Customers trying to make > > this transition to OO strategies have flagged. Some major projects > > have also run into big issues with these challenges, so the grass > > is not always green on the other side. > > OO helps in some areas, and what you can do in a good IDE is quite > powerful. There are also some bad IDEs. There are cases when I hike up > the IDE and crawl in underneath it, and there are cases where the IDE > massively increases my development and debugging speed, or lets me do > far more in the same time. Different tools for different jobs. > > > > Remember there are many ways to accomplish the same goal and don't get > > caught up with the industry and media hype that OO is where everyone > > needs to migrate to. Yes, OO currently has the "cool" and "in" label, > > but at one point in the past, AI was also "cool" and we know it did > > not take over the world either. > > OO is in far wider use than AI ever managed. There are techniques > from AI that can be useful, though I use OO techniques far more often. > (OO techniques in old and non-OO code, and OO techniques in new code.) > Different tools and techniques for different jobs, and preferably an > appropriate tool for the particular task. > > OO via IDE is entirely different than working with traditional > techniques, but that doesn't make it better or worse. I happen to like > OO IDE and I happen to like traditional -- make use of the best of both, > as appropriate. It's certainly not an exclusive decision. > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 18:10:46 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) Message-ID: <46423a86$0$16371$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Stephen Hoffman" wrote in message news:f1t08a$1op7$1@pyrite.mv.net... > Tom Linden wrote: >> On Wed, 09 May 2007 04:56:18 -0700, Neil Rieck >> wrote: [...snip...] >> >> There is no compelling reason to go to OO, at least not the way it is >> done. > > It's a tool. OO can be nasty, or it can be useful. There are some OO > IDE environments that allow faster coding. Yes, there are trade-offs in > image size and overhead from tasks such as garbage collection, etc. OO and > IDE can often help hit deployment -- and revenues -- quicker than non-OO. > Aim for the target, and pick the tools that allow you to best and most > quickly and most efficiently hit the target. > I couldn't agree more. Sometimes OO is required and sometimes it is over kill. Consider "maintainable" web browser code and DOM. I really doubt that this is possible without resorting to OO. > [.snip...] > > Itanium has various advantages over Alpha and over x86-32 and x86-64, and > in cases where OpenVMS is in use, it's the platform. (BTW, I dug up the > various RAS features lists a while back, and posted a summary at the new > web site. RAS features can exist within the processor, within in the > platform, and within the OS. And whether or not particular RAS features > are even a factor depends on your requirements and your environment, and > both can vary widely.) > I just found the RAS articles at your site. Cool stuff and interesting reading as always. But you'll never convince me that Intel engineers will decide to "only" put this stuff into Itanium2 while keeping it out of a future descendent of x86-64; A guy in my office just bought a quad-core for home use and was overheard telling someone else about Intel's V8 mother board; I fear that most mid-range processors will get sucked down to a common denominator. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:34:49 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) Message-ID: Hi Neil, > Then we are in agreement because I think OpenVMS is the superior OS as well. Without question! > I do code development every day with EDT but need to point out that a > younger developer in our group copies source code to Windows, edits, then > copies back because "no one wants to learn EDT after they have first been > exposed to a GUI based editor". So in this light if we don't attract younger > developers with GUI based tools, then the future of OpenVMS is doomed. There's a guy I know in London that still keeps copying stuff to LSE on VMS 'cos he can't bring himself to use (vi?) on Unix. Personally, I think it would be great if "young" developers used a PC or Unix-based IDE and then deployed on VMS! Digital doesn't have to waste time and effort trying to develop a genre of software that they're demonstrably no good at, and VMS get's to host the final product (or at least some part of it). I call that a win-win situation. > Also, the majority of our software is large but not object oriented. It has > been my experience that the only way to properly do large OO programming is > with an IDE. Stop apologising! There is nothing wrong with your software! Who (apart from those with their snouts in the Java/SDK/JVM/WSIT trough) say you should be using OO on VMS and that you should change (or at least conceal) you rich heritage of 3GL based development? > OpenVMS engineering supports NetBeans for OpenVMS program > development and I think this is a good first step. Please explain why this is a good step? Is NetBeans Eclipse based? If not shouldn't we be going Eclipse or a.n.other IDE? Which is better? Shouldn't we have all of them? How many version behind will we be? Should we continue to bleed money and resources on this, or have a inner-mode heap-manager or a new cluster interconnect or file system or product x? Develop on Solaris or Windows - Deploy on VMS. Hell, I've been using the command line on Windows to Javac an Jar an Applet and I can certainly understand where the need for these IDEs comes from, but instead of trying to forge some cheap plastic replica on VMS I'd prefer to see VMS 3GL language semantic tags incorporated into some lovely multi-colored token spotting editor on Windows. But then *I* thought the "GoTo line" functionality in NotePad was a God-send and I have several JavaScript/HTML pages over 1000 lines that I have debugged without a debugger :-( I sure hope FireBug's good! I call it "resistance-traning", imagine how productive I'd be with an IDE :-) I really wish people would stop listening to those in Digital (and obviously the press) who *for many years now* have been telling you that you should be ashamed of where you come from, and how there is no alternative to a complete 180 in your development environment. I don't want to look like I'm trying to wrap myself in the flag but I'm bloody proud of VMS! I just wish more of those on VMS's payroll could say the same thing :-( Cheers Richard Maher "Neil Rieck" wrote in message news:4641aa83$0$20568$88260bb3@free.teranews.com... > > "Richard Maher" wrote in message > news:f1rkak$jp$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > > > > [...snip...] > > > > > In defense of VMS Engineering, I'd just like to say: - > > "We invested a lot of time and energy into creating something better than > > VMSINSTAL." > > > > As for all this "auto-installing" stuff, just ask yourself if most SUN and > > Windows developers aren't kicking themselves that they don't have PCSI :-) > > > > On a serious note though, I just wish VMS Engineering would stop trying to > > "replicate" what SUN or Microsoft or Whoever are doing and instead tried > > harder to "integrate" these outstanding products with VMS's strengths. I > > mean how many IDEs do you need on VMS for Java if everyone is using their > > favourite IDE on their favourite platform and, at best, just shipping the > > JAR or CLASS files to the VMS/JVM for execution? Rather than playing > > perennial catchup, shouldn't HP be applauding SUN's efforts and then > > saying > > that we can make it more resilient (if not run faster) on VMS? Take > > Solaris/Java, Linux/Java, Windows/.NET - Surely VMS should embrace them > > all > > as potential front-end solutions? (And, most importantly, stop diverting > > precious resources into competing with them?) > > > > Me? I like VMS! I revel in it's existing and rich development environment. > > I > > love its clustering and reliability, its Run-Time Libraries and language > > neutral environment. I love its Lock Manager and its 4 Processor Modes; > > yes > > its beauty and its terror; the wide-brown land for me! > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > PS. Have I missed something and everybody thinks VMS now has a place back > > on > > the desktop workstation market? Maybe we should start manufacturing VTxxx > > again? NintendoVMSboy? VBox? Satirically, that Linux penguin with > > diving-flippers and a strapped-on rubber bill is looking more and more > > like > > logo material :-( VMStunes with Itanium inside? (Could be a bit bigger > > than > > the Apple one) Who needs a rudder eh? Let's just keep "saling" around out > > here and see what happens. > > > > Then we are in agreement because I think OpenVMS is the superior OS as well. > I do code development every day with EDT but need to point out that a > younger developer in our group copies source code to Windows, edits, then > copies back because "no one wants to learn EDT after they have first been > exposed to a GUI based editor". So in this light if we don't attract younger > developers with GUI based tools, then the future of OpenVMS is doomed. > > Also, the majority of our software is large but not object oriented. It has > been my experience that the only way to properly do large OO programming is > with an IDE. OpenVMS engineering supports NetBeans for OpenVMS program > development and I think this is a good first step. > > With regards to your PC comments, x86 was crappy and everyone outside that > world knows it. But Intel and AMD are morphing these products into something > closer to what Alpha already is. Some day very soon (single years) there > will be no real difference between x86-64 and enterprise processors like > Alpha, PA-RISC, and Itanium. Some bean counter will then pull the plug on > Itanium and we'll all be trapped on another dead technology. > > p.s. with regard to your new thread name "Digital *is* a Software Company", > I used to think that the technical contributions of Digital and Compaq could > survive in an HP world. Now that HP sales is promoting HP-UX as a > replacement for OpenVMS I can see that HP is treating DEC and Compaq like > rejected step children. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > > > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:16:27 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Digital *is* a Software Company? (Was Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE)) Message-ID: Hi Tom, > Well, there is nothing wrong with that. In my case Emacs has been my > editor > of choice for the last 30 years, and i can't get a decent one for VMS. But > thanks to WASD, I can use Xemacs on W2k/XP and open any file on my cluster > under https. It is a waste of effort for Digital (That is what I call > VMS Engineering) to reinvent these tools on VMS when they work perfectly > fine Would someone like to put a cogent argument against the points that Tom's just made here? Maybe one of you that's just put an invoice in for a 100hour NetBeans-to-VMS week? > There is no compelling reason to go to OO, at least not the way it is done. The compelling reason is that, once again, *no* new VMS licenses or users will materialise on the strength of VMS supporting ancient versions of OO development tools. Therefore in order to justify the vast development expense, yet another save-my-arse project leader at Digital is selling the idea that all this was really aimed at the *existing* client base who were going to leave VMS in droves if he/she hadn't done such a stirling effort in spending all those license-payer dollars. Meanwhile, all that the existing customers really wanted to do is expose their rich heritage of 3GL code and databases to the Web, or at least a respectable GUI. It is an absolute crime that this loyal customer base is being shafted into believing that, to achieve their aims, they have to become VMS&3GL-deniers, and totally re-engineer, and re-tool their development *and production* environments! > The transition of Digital from a Hardware to a Software company is a far > superior business model, and it has always baffled me that Digital > management > is incapable of grasping that. The ironic thing is that I got that saying from a Digital coffee mug in Munich about twelve years ago (and I think it was quite a few years old then). Cheers Richard Maher PS. What was it again that the guy from Apple was saying about Java and why he's not supporting it on his phones? Microsoft's finished with Java, Apple's finished with Java, Digital embraces Java and once again bets-the-farm (or the customer's farm). Yep, very brave indeed! "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.tr2bq9cvtte90l@hyrrokkin... > On Wed, 09 May 2007 04:56:18 -0700, Neil Rieck > wrote: > > > > > "Richard Maher" wrote in message > > news:f1rkak$jp$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > >> > > > > [...snip...] > > > >> > >> In defense of VMS Engineering, I'd just like to say: - > >> "We invested a lot of time and energy into creating something better > >> than > >> VMSINSTAL." > >> > >> As for all this "auto-installing" stuff, just ask yourself if most SUN > >> and > >> Windows developers aren't kicking themselves that they don't have PCSI > >> :-) > >> > >> On a serious note though, I just wish VMS Engineering would stop trying > >> to > >> "replicate" what SUN or Microsoft or Whoever are doing and instead tried > >> harder to "integrate" these outstanding products with VMS's strengths. I > >> mean how many IDEs do you need on VMS for Java if everyone is using > >> their > >> favourite IDE on their favourite platform and, at best, just shipping > >> the > >> JAR or CLASS files to the VMS/JVM for execution? Rather than playing > >> perennial catchup, shouldn't HP be applauding SUN's efforts and then > >> saying > >> that we can make it more resilient (if not run faster) on VMS? Take > >> Solaris/Java, Linux/Java, Windows/.NET - Surely VMS should embrace them > >> all > >> as potential front-end solutions? (And, most importantly, stop diverting > >> precious resources into competing with them?) > >> > >> Me? I like VMS! I revel in it's existing and rich development > >> environment. I > >> love its clustering and reliability, its Run-Time Libraries and language > >> neutral environment. I love its Lock Manager and its 4 Processor Modes; > >> yes > >> its beauty and its terror; the wide-brown land for me! > >> > >> Cheers Richard Maher > >> > >> PS. Have I missed something and everybody thinks VMS now has a place > >> back on > >> the desktop workstation market? Maybe we should start manufacturing > >> VTxxx > >> again? NintendoVMSboy? VBox? Satirically, that Linux penguin with > >> diving-flippers and a strapped-on rubber bill is looking more and more > >> like > >> logo material :-( VMStunes with Itanium inside? (Could be a bit bigger > >> than > >> the Apple one) Who needs a rudder eh? Let's just keep "saling" around > >> out > >> here and see what happens. > >> > > > > Then we are in agreement because I think OpenVMS is the superior OS as > > well. I do code development every day with EDT but need to point out > > that a younger developer in our group copies source code to Windows, > > edits, then copies back because "no one wants to learn EDT after they > > have first been exposed to a GUI based editor". So in this light if we > > don't attract younger developers with GUI based tools, then the future > > of OpenVMS is doomed. > > Well, there is nothing wrong with that. In my case Emacs has been my > editor > of choice for the last 30 years, and i can't get a decent one for VMS. But > thanks to WASD, I can use Xemacs on W2k/XP and open any file on my cluster > under https. It is a waste of effort for Digital (That is what I call > VMS Engineering) to reinvent these tools on VMS when they work perfectly > fine > > > > > Also, the majority of our software is large but not object oriented. It > > has been my experience that the only way to properly do large OO > > programming is with an IDE. OpenVMS engineering supports NetBeans for > > OpenVMS program development and I think this is a good first step. > > There is no compelling reason to go to OO, at least not the way it is done. > > > > With regards to your PC comments, x86 was crappy and everyone outside > > that world knows it. But Intel and AMD are morphing these products into > > something closer to what Alpha already is. Some day very soon (single > > years) there will be no real difference between x86-64 and enterprise > > processors like Alpha, PA-RISC, and Itanium. Some bean counter will then > > pull the plug on Itanium and we'll all be trapped on another dead > > technology. > > The transition of Digital from a Hardware to a Software company is a far > superior business model, and it has always baffled me that Digital > management > is incapable of grasping that. > > > > p.s. with regard to your new thread name "Digital *is* a Software > > Company", I used to think that the technical contributions of Digital > > and Compaq could survive in an HP world. Now that HP sales is promoting > > HP-UX as a replacement for OpenVMS I can see that HP is treating DEC and > > Compaq like rejected step children. > > > > Neil Rieck > > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > > Ontario, Canada. > > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > > > > > > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2007 15:28:54 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: earthquake hits Montana! Message-ID: <1178749734.474556.324630@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/05/09/news/mtregional/news05.txt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:43:19 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: earthquake hits Montana! Message-ID: <07050917431904_202002DA@antinode.org> From: genius@marblecliff.com > http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/05/09/news/mtregional/news05.txt FLASH! Imbicile clutters a VMS news group with yet another off-topic item, apparently intended to put the fear of something into someone. Sighs, chuckles, and mild head-shaking are reported from scattered locations around the world. -30- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:28:02 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: earthquake hits Montana! Message-ID: <46426712.1040903@comcast.net> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: genius@marblecliff.com > > >>http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/05/09/news/mtregional/news05.txt > > > FLASH! Imbicile clutters a VMS news group with yet another off-topic > item, apparently intended to put the fear of something into someone. > > Sighs, chuckles, and mild head-shaking are reported from scattered > locations around the world. > > -30- Learn a lesson from the late "Speaker to Minerals" a/k/a Carl J. Lydick! There is no point to telling a moron that he is a moron! He is not capable of comprehending his condistion. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:00:59 +0200 From: Albrecht Schlosser Subject: Re: Seeking Terminal Server Manager (TSM) manuals Message-ID: Alan Frisbie wrote: > I am looking for a machine-readable manual for the old > DEC Terminal Server Manager product. The original > part number was AA-JF99C-TE. > > And as long as I'm asking for unobtainum, I might as > also ask for an electronic copy of the TSM Software > Installation Guide (AA-JF00C-TE). :-) This is freeware now, see http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware60/tsm/ From http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware60/tsm/freeware_readme.txt "The softcopy manuals are to be found in the [.DOCUMENTATION] subdirectory of the working directory that you created..." Albrecht ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:07:33 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Seeking Terminal Server Manager (TSM) manuals Message-ID: Alan Frisbie wrote: > I am looking for a machine-readable manual for the old > DEC Terminal Server Manager product. The original > part number was AA-JF99C-TE. > > And as long as I'm asking for unobtainum, I might as > also ask for an electronic copy of the TSM Software > Installation Guide (AA-JF00C-TE). :-) Install the kit? Pull the kit apart. (By coincidence, I had posted details on pulling apart a VMSINSTAL kit at the new website a couple of days ago, though you know how to do that.) According to the Freeware Readme for TSM, the available softcopy documentation is embedded inside the kit. URLs: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware60/tsm/freeware_readme.txt http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/tsm_on_alpha.html -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:37:20 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: Seeking Terminal Server Manager (TSM) manuals Message-ID: Alan Frisbie wrote: > I am looking for a machine-readable manual for the old > DEC Terminal Server Manager product. The original > part number was AA-JF99C-TE. > > And as long as I'm asking for unobtainum, I might as > also ask for an electronic copy of the TSM Software > Installation Guide (AA-JF00C-TE). :-) I second that inquiry. The User Guide contained in the freeware archive (tsm016.bkb) only looks okay in bookreader. Printed as postscript or viewed through hyperreader in a browser its formatting is awful. Re: Neil Rieck's page http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/tsm_on_alpha.html Entering EIA0 into the list of supported ethernet interfaces can be done by tweaking KITINSTAL.COM a little bit. And by using the .OLBs intended for DECnet+ V7.2 you can even get it to run under DECnet+ V7.3 (i.e. OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-*). cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:34:58 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: ... > SYS$DQDRIVER has been blocking and deblocking 2 KiB sectors (four 512- > byte blocks per sector) starting with OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-1H1. This > preserves the host view of the storage universe; it avoids having to > tear up the whole of the I/O stack up into the applications. There are (at least) two separate views of disk granularity: allocation granularity, and access granularity. Arbitrarily deciding to *allocate* on 2KB boundaries is relatively painless (in a manner similar to that of a disk cluster size that applications by and large can ignore without impact): it only potentially affects performance at (in the case of RMS) DEQ/ALQ boundaries (in fact, RMS was designed to tolerate flexibility in allocation granularity: rather than demanding specific allocations or placements, it requests them and then uses whatever it actually got from there on in). But arbitrarily deciding to *access* only on 2KB boundaries is apt to trash performance across a wide range of higher-level software, since from the days of VMS V1.0 to the present higher-level software (including RMS, which is quite conscious internally of how disks are laid out) has been able to depend upon being able to access conventional disks on 512-byte boundaries (e.g., even the maximum bucket size for RMS Relative and Indexed files - limited though it is by today's standards, and hence increasingly popular - is not 2KB-alignable). If what you describe above indeed forces all media *access* to 2KB boundaries, one might suspect that it was because even as far back as V7.1-1H1 VMS's owners weren't willing to fund doing the job (merging in CD/DVD support?) right (though given the contortions required to avoid crippling the system entirely - e.g., in terms of updating individual file headers - it's difficult to imagine that this was inexpensive). Because even if you try to alleviate the adverse effects on unaligned write accesses by use of lower-level caches (which itself can introduce 'false sharing' artifacts that themselves can potentially hurt performance) there's no guarantee that the data will still be there when the update actually occurs (whereas if you allowed the disk to be accessed at its traditional granularity, it simply wouldn't matter). - bill ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 2007 06:05:58 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Message-ID: On Wed, 9 May 2007 12:48:43 UTC, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <46411ab6$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > > > > My guess is that there will be a lot of broken code out there with > > hardcoded 512. > > As there was for pagesize prior to Alpha. Gee, none of my code > broke. I broke mine in calls to LIB$GET_VM_ZONE but that was because I misread the documentation w.r.t. pages and pagelets. I divided the number of bytes required by 8192 on AXP and 512 on VAX. Silly boy. It worked for a long time without complaint... -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:56:07 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Message-ID: <4641d2f8$1@mvb.saic.com> JF Mezei wrote: [some text deleted] > Also, when you run Mozilla on a workstation, it will take every > possible resource it can lay its hands on and adding a functional SMTP > adds to an already overloaded workstation. My workstation runs Mozilla, SMTP (using PMDF), PMAS, NNTP (using DNEWS), WASD, Pathworks, MMOV, Audio/Video apps, and a number of other services and they all co-exist very happily with each other. The system has both memory and CPU to spare. You just need to configure the system correctly, both hardware and software. Let's see, if memory serves me correctly, you are running a DS10L with an IDE disk and 256MB of memory. I am running a DS10 with SCSI disks and 1.25GB of memory. I suspect you will be a lot happier if you just get some more memory for your system. Then you can tweak the VMS memory settings to make Mozilla run very happily. Mozilla on a 256MB Windows system doesn't run very well either. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:19:03 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Message-ID: <46423AC7.8020601@comcast.net> Mark Berryman wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > [some text deleted] > >> Also, when you run Mozilla on a workstation, it will take every >> possible resource it can lay its hands on and adding a functional SMTP >> adds to an already overloaded workstation. > > > My workstation runs Mozilla, SMTP (using PMDF), PMAS, NNTP (using > DNEWS), WASD, Pathworks, MMOV, Audio/Video apps, and a number of other > services and they all co-exist very happily with each other. The system > has both memory and CPU to spare. You just need to configure the system > correctly, both hardware and software. > > Let's see, if memory serves me correctly, you are running a DS10L with > an IDE disk and 256MB of memory. I am running a DS10 with SCSI disks > and 1.25GB of memory. I suspect you will be a lot happier if you just > get some more memory for your system. Then you can tweak the VMS memory > settings to make Mozilla run very happily. Mozilla on a 256MB Windows > system doesn't run very well either. > > Mark Berryman ISTR remarks here, and elsewhere, to the effect that Mozilla is a hog on any platform! Also, that there are, or were, memory leak problems of long standing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:00:38 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Message-ID: Neil Rieck wrote: > ...But remember that my initial post mentioned 64-bit Solaris coming > up on a dual-core x86-64 (2.8 GHz) for free. It's an open low-end commercial and hobbyist license; in that product space, Sun has to compete with Linux. I expect Sun is looking for ROI from up-selling support services and from getting applications and sites from the low-end boxes into their SPARC-based product line, but that's speculation. > You already know that I prefer OpenVMS over every other OS but, like the > story of the "tortoise and the hare", many VMS people are not noticing > that other OSs are slowly catching up. Some of these people also refuse > to acknowledge that x86-64 is getting better every year as well. I started out when IBM ruled the roost. "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" was the mantra. IBM had overtaken the BUNCH, as I recall. DIGITAL and then Sun followed, and Microsoft is now in wide deployment. What happens next, donno. As for x86-64, you've probably seen my comments on some of these processors before. > As I previously said in another thread, I had been installing both "Red > Hat Linux" and "Solaris" on a home PC every spring for the past 4 years, > and I really didn't find anything worth mentioning until this year... It's all part of staying (somewhat) current across a whole spectrum of products. > ...Solaris-11 and Sun Studio 11. For example, even though I'm building code > on an "x86-64 based" PC, I can generate and optimize code for SPARC. > This means that developers don't need to be in possession of a SPARC in > order to support one. (but how is this any different from running > OpenVMS in a virtual environment on top of HP-UX ?) You can have a target processor environment and a target operating system. Cross-building for HP-UX and OpenVMS on Itanium within a virtual machine (same architecture, different OS) is a different problem than building a fat binary for Mac OS X on POWER, x86-32 and x86-64 from within Xtools (multiple architectures, one OS). > I really hope that HP has got a skunk-works porting OpenVMS to x86-64 > because like the VHS vs. BETA thing (BETA was better) I'm thinking that > x86-64 will eventually dominate the marketplace. I'd expect that x86-64 already has a larger product volume, though that's a guess and based on no knowledge of any numbers from any vendors. x86-64 is the standard box for Microsoft Windows and Apple Mac OS X now, and also in widespread use underneath Solaris x86-64 and many Linux installations. The cheap "stripped" boxes are x86-32. Move up into the mid- to upper-range products, and it's x86-64. The key piece for a business isn't the architecture or the product or the product volumes however, it's ROI -- this detail always seems to get lost in the press discussions. Having big numbers looks good, but having good ROI is better. If Itanium solves your particular business problems with the best ROI or with the best competitive advantage, then buy it. If a high-volume product is more efficient, have at. OpenVMS and Itanium systems are aimed at different customer applications than those that buy stripped x86-32 desktops by the truckload. As various folks (and probably Kerry most recently) have commented, the hardware and software acquisition costs often end up being noise-level stuff over the lifetime of the product or process or development effort. If you buy cheap up front, make sure you don't end up paying more over the lifetime of the product or the deployment, in terms of services, hassles, support, upgrades, purchasing add-on tools that are standard on other boxes, etc. ROI. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 2007 05:20:30 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2007 17:55:43 UTC, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > DEC dropped the manufacture of new VAX hardware and HP may not support > VAX enough to ship new VMS releases, but you can still buy support for > both the hardware and the software and call them when yo0u're having > problems. > > I just wish there was enough customer pressure for a Fortran-95 > compiler so I could use 9x features on code that runs across my > cluster. I second that - It would need to support the /VAX_ELN qualifier though. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:43:54 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: tukwila hits iceberg! Message-ID: <1s2dnXthLbkH3d_bnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com> JF Mezei wrote: ... > If tukwila is to be more or less on-time at the expense of clock speed, > it means that between then and the next one (Poulson ?), the 8086 will > have a lot of time to catch up Earth to JF: current x86s have *already* caught up to Itanic (yes, even to Montecito), and show every indication of rapidly leaving it in the dust over the next 2 years before Tukwila even shows up for the party. If Tukwila indeed offers only a moderately faster core than today's Montecito it will be pretty much dead on arrival, since its improved system-level (CSI) support will be shared with its by-then-*far*-faster x86 Intel brethren (its AMD cousins already have a leg up in that area, and will have something even better well before CSI arrives). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:52:33 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: What was it Gomer Pile used to say? Message-ID: Hi, I wrote:- > Is that project still underway to provide a high-performance industry > compatible C compiler and RTL on VMS? After 20 years and 200million I reakon > you guys must have just about nailed that fork() thing by now? Then John Reagan Wrote:- > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 10:52 PM > Subject: Re: Bash << doesn't work with VMS 8.3 > Yes, we're still working on GNV. Bash is interesting since it needs > major changes to run on OpenVMS (the lack of native fork() is a > problem). We'd like to pick up a new set of sources, but the work to > reapply all the changes is quite large. Then Martin Borgman Wrote:- > As for fork(), thats a real bitch. I don't think we'll see a fork() call > in the CRTL very soon, maybe never... Looks like the answer to my question is "no" then. I'll tell the VMS, Cobol (and other 3GL license payers) that they'd better get their pants down ready for another margin-call to prop-up this Unix Replication project :-( Hey, if God did not want them shorn, he wouldn't have made them sheep? Cheers Richard Maher PS. Unix is *not* Jerusalem - Please stop trying to build it in VMS's pleasant land! "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:f16d0m$ii5$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Hi Kerry, > > > Heck, many shops I know of are still running 1.4 versions of Java. > > Presumably that includes the 99.9% of any VMS shops that may have been > running Java, 'cos up until very very recently they didn't have a whole lot > of choice, did they? Didn't Sun release 1.6 of Java before VMS announced > support for 1.5? > > Is that project still underway to provide a high-performance industry > compatible C compiler and RTL on VMS? After 20 years and 200million I reakon > you guys must have just about nailed that fork() thing by now? > > Did I also hear that the POSIX shell was making a come back? What was the > ROI like on that anyway? > > So now the Goal Posts have been set up next to Java? Is that so ISVs can > port their vast catalogues of Java-based software products to VMS? (Or is > the installed base supposed to pick up the tab and justify the expense by, > once again, 180ing their inhouse development strategy to suite the whim of > DEC/Compaq/HP?) I'd be happy if we just invested the money in keeping the > ISVs we've already got :-( > > "Ok Mr Software Developer, so you'd like to develop and deploy a system in > Java would you? We have a choice of this SUN box and operating system that > was used to create and test Java on in the first place with the suped up 1.6 > engine, or there's the VMS family-truckster in metalic-pea; now take your > time, I don't want you to rush anything." > > At least SUN pays for the JVM development on Windows, I somehow don't think > they're forking out for the one on VMS. No! It is yet again that cash cow of > VMS 3GL license payers who get to prop up every folly that takes > engineering's fancy :-( But you gotta keep aghead of the curve eh? (Or ever > sooooo slightly behind, as the case may be.) > > But you're talking too fast, slow down a bit, I'm trying to take notes: - > > So it's not ONC RPC or DCE RPC > It's not ACMSxp > It's not DECforms > It's not DECadmire > It's not COM > It's bloody well not BridgeWorks > > So it *is* now NetBeans and the Waste of Substantial Investment in > Technology? This is what is needed to conceal our embarassing > legacy/heritage VMS software from the public gaze. Ok, let's get the stone > masons in so we can at least pin you down on that. We may be a few versions > behind, and who cares if the benchmarks are complete crap, the important > thing is it almost sounds like a duck! (A bit more like Rodney Dangerfield > in CaddyShack, but anyway. . .) > > Regards Richard Maher > > "Main, Kerry" wrote in message > news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684022F31C6@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Arne Vajhøj [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > > Sent: April 30, 2007 7:55 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? > > > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > > In line with the Sun J2EE crowd, HP now offers the NetBeans IDE > > > environment for OpenVMS. This allows one the benefits of using > > existing > > > tools while at the same time integrate with new J2EE environments as > > > well. > > > > > > Reference: > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html > > (New > > > release on Alpha and Integrity) > > > > > > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/overview.html > > > NetBeans is a modular, integrated development environment (IDE) for > > Java > > > and JavaBeans development. Written in 100 percent pure Java(tm), it > > was > > > open-sourced by Sun Microsystems. Its popularity is a result of its > > > versatility, extensible architecture, and relative ease of use. > > > > It is good, but it could be better. > > > > OpenVMS: > > NetBeans 3.6 > > NetBeans 5.0 Field Test 2 > > > > Other platforms: > > NetBeans 5.5 > > NetBeans 6.0 Milestone 8 > > > > Arne > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/distnb.html > > Download Distributed NetBeans V5.0 Field Test 2 for OpenVMS Alpha and I64 > (December 2006) > > Given how most shops are reluctant to jump on the latest versions of IDE's > (worried about production schedule hits), it does not bother me that much if > OpenVMS is a release behind. With IDE's, its not unlike OS releases i.e. > most shops do not do .0 releases, but rather wait for SP's or maint > releases. > > Heck, many shops I know of are still running 1.4 versions of Java. > > :-) > > Regards > > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > > > ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.255 ************************