INFO-VAX Fri, 06 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 365 Contents: Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Book: Inside the Machine Re: Book: Inside the Machine Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Re: IP Lease Re: IP Lease Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th RE: July the 4th Re: Memory problem Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option SSL/TLS Stuff (was Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server)) Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: What happen to the Deathrow cluster Re: XML for VMS XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:56:30 GMT From: "John Vottero" Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message news:4670575B.5040605@comcast.net... > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 06/13/07 11:44, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>> >>>> If DCL had been constantly improved like bash 1.0 was an >>>> improvement >>> >>> >>> >>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few >>> years ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) >> >> >> WHILE, FOR, CASE and "lists" would help a lot. And I'm sure I >> could think of some excellent uses of user-defined functions. >> >>> I know someone who claims to have a DCL program that occupies >>> some 400 pages of "greenbar paper" when printed. Many of us have >>> written DCL that "writes" DCL. It's a hell of a lot more >>> "readable" than the abominations that Unix uses. >> >> >> True. And lexicals make many things easier than in bash. >> >> But bash lets you do a *lot* on just one line, once you know the >> language. >> > > But bash, or any Unix shell uses a command line that LOOKS as if you had > slapped your keyboard with your coffee cup! Anything I can't do on one > line, I'm inclined to put in a command file! > Microsoft looked at DCL, Bash, Perl etc, etc, took the best aspects of each and came up with PowerShell. HP needs to replace DCL if it wants VMS to stay competitive. If you're interested, more PowerShell information is available here: http://www.microsoft.com/PowerShell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:00:38 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468ceb78@mvb.saic.com> David J Dachtera wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years >>> ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) >> If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. >> >> More and better control structure, more data types, extension >> mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. >> >> I don't think it will happen. >> >> A server shell language is not a sales point today. >> >> If a VMS user wants something else, then they can >> look at Perl or Python. > > Which of those ships as part of the base o.s. and so is guaranteed to be found > on every VMS installation, past and present? And this is a requirement, why? TCP/IP is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past and present. Clustering is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past and present. Any computer-related standard adopted in the past 20 years is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past and present. To adopt an attitude of "every good idea that comes along relative to a CLI must be incorporated into DCL because I can't guarantee that every VMS system will have access to the tool that the rest of the world uses to make use of that good idea" does not make sense to me. I recently converted a procedure I have that runs nightly from DCL to Perl. The DCL version took 4 hours to complete, the Perl version takes less than 1 hour and is processing more data than the DCL version did. Assuming this procedure were of sufficient general interest that I wanted to submit it for the next freeware disk, what would suggest I do with it? I really, really can't understand the attitude of those folks here who say "if it doesn't ship with VMS then don't suggest it as a solution". Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:41:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <39bf1$468d65aa$cef8887a$13216@TEKSAVVY.COM> Mark Berryman wrote: > Clustering is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past > and present. Can you describe what would not be available on a non-clustered machine vs clustered ? SYSMAN works ICC$ communications routines work MON CLU is no longer functional in a cluster so that can't be used to compare. There are now far more differences between DCL between VAX/Alpha than there are differences between a clustered and non clustered system. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:05:23 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468d08b5$1@mvb.saic.com> JF Mezei wrote: > Mark Berryman wrote: >> Clustering is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, >> past and present. > > Can you describe what would not be available on a non-clustered machine > vs clustered ? ClusterING, not cluster services that are available whether you are clustered or not. VMSCluster support was not a day one offering. Thus, if you insist on a feature being present on all VMS system, past and present, you cannot make use of Cluster features since they weren't always there. > MON CLU is no longer functional in a cluster so that can't be used to > compare. It is totally functional and works in every cluster I manage. > There are now far more differences between DCL between VAX/Alpha than > there are differences between a clustered and non clustered system. Which is not the point I was addressing. I was addressing what I believe to be unreasonable demands on how one obtains the software one wants. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:52:25 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468d8432$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> David J Dachtera wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years >>> ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) >> If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. >> >> More and better control structure, more data types, extension >> mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. >> >> I don't think it will happen. >> >> A server shell language is not a sales point today. >> >> If a VMS user wants something else, then they can >> look at Perl or Python. > > Which of those ships as part of the base o.s. and so is guaranteed to be found > on every VMS installation, past and present? None. But if you have scripting requirements that are beyond a normal level of DCL, then installing something extra should not be a problem. BTW, I would not complain if VMS shipped with Python ... Arne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:59:39 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468D85EB.662E3229@spam.comcast.net> Mark Berryman wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years > >>> ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) > >> If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. > >> > >> More and better control structure, more data types, extension > >> mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. > >> > >> I don't think it will happen. > >> > >> A server shell language is not a sales point today. > >> > >> If a VMS user wants something else, then they can > >> look at Perl or Python. > > > > Which of those ships as part of the base o.s. and so is guaranteed to be found > > on every VMS installation, past and present? > > And this is a requirement, why? If you have to ask, you're not likely to understand the answer. > TCP/IP is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past and > present. Irrelevant. DECnet ships with the o.s. > Clustering is not guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past > and present. Clustering is not always needed. > Any computer-related standard adopted in the past 20 years is not > guaranteed to be found on every VMS installation, past and present. Most things considered "standard" today are only de-facto, not true "industry" standards. > To adopt an attitude of "every good idea that comes along relative to a > CLI must be incorporated into DCL because I can't guarantee that every > VMS system will have access to the tool that the rest of the world uses > to make use of that good idea" does not make sense to me. Not sure where that came from. Didn't see it in this thread up to this point. > I recently converted a procedure I have that runs nightly from DCL to > Perl. The DCL version took 4 hours to complete, the Perl version takes > less than 1 hour and is processing more data than the DCL version did. > Assuming this procedure were of sufficient general interest that I > wanted to submit it for the next freeware disk, what would suggest I do > with it? Package it with a perl distro. that can be installed on V7.3-2 and up without compiling from source. > I really, really can't understand the attitude of those folks here who > say "if it doesn't ship with VMS then don't suggest it as a solution". If you have to ask, you're not likely to understand the answer. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:04:32 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Book: Inside the Machine Message-ID: <1183680272.415725.238290@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 1:07 pm, Chip Coldwell wrote: [...snip...] > The author, Jon Stokes, is "Hannibal" on Ars Technica. > Hopefully this isn't a reference to Hannibal Lecter :-0 NSR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:28:42 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Book: Inside the Machine Message-ID: <1183681722.731409.197490@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 7:35 am, Neil Rieck wrote: > [...snip...] NETBURST: As you learned in Chapter 2, there are limits to how deeply you can pipeline an architecture before you begin to reach a point of diminishing returns. Deeper pipelining results in an increase in instruction execution time; the increase can be quite damaging to instruction completion rates if the pipeline has to be flushed and refilled often. Furthermore, in order to realize the throughput gains that deep pipelining promises, the processor's clock speed must increase in proportion to its pipeline depth. [...snip...] Because of these drawbacks to deep pipelining, many critics of the Pentium 4's microarchitecture, dubbed NetBurst by Intel, have suggested that its staggeringly long pipeline was a gimmick - a poor design choice made for reasons of marketing and not performance and scalability. [...snip...] It's my understanding that this fact was widely known within Intel, even though it was not, and probably newer will be, publicly acknowledged. We now know that during the Pentium 4's design, the design team was under pressure from the marketing folks to turn out a chip that would give Intel a massive MHz lead over its rivals. The reasoning apparently went that MHz was the single number that the general public understood, and they knew that just like everything in the world - except for golf scores - higher numbers are somehow better. So now I'm wondering if Intel marketing people duped HPQ management into killing off Alpha and PA-PISC. At least IBM and SUN didn't get sucked in by this. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 23:56:13 -0400 From: "Ray" Subject: Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Message-ID: <04jji.157$175.16@newsfe02.lga> > Yeah, L. Ron Hubbard is one of the richest guys in the cemetary. It's not particularly difficult to manage that feat if you keep writing and releasing books after you die! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 23:56:44 -0400 From: "Ray" Subject: Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Message-ID: <14jji.158$175.2@newsfe02.lga> > Yeah, L. Ron Hubbard is one of the richest guys in the cemetary. It's not particularly difficult to manage that feat if you keep writing and releasing books after you die! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:59:26 -0700 From: Peter Weaver Subject: Re: IP Lease Message-ID: <1183658366.631620.191250@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 29, 12:19 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >... > From home I use PuTTY SSH on an XP laptop through a wireless router >.. > different IPs. Don't suppose there is any way of doing this? In PuTTY go to the reconfiguration window and click on Connections, then enter some number in the "Seconds between keepalives (0 to turn off)" box. 900 worked for me when someone reconfigured a router at a customer's site. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial Hardware ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:16:21 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: IP Lease Message-ID: On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:59:26 -0700, Peter Weaver wrote: > On Jun 29, 12:19 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> ... >> From home I use PuTTY SSH on an XP laptop through a wireless router >> .. >> different IPs. Don't suppose there is any way of doing this? > > In PuTTY go to the reconfiguration window and click on Connections, > then enter some number in the "Seconds between keepalives (0 to turn > off)" box. 900 worked for me when someone reconfigured a router at a > customer's site. > > Peter Weaver > www.weaverconsulting.ca > CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial > Hardware > I don't think that is the problem. I think Comcast or Verizon is dropping the connection, but I will try it and see if makes any difference. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 2007 18:08:31 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5f4qcuF3a796tU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: July 5, 2007 12:43 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>=20 >> In article <90d24$468d09bd$cef8887a$5386@teksavvy.com>, >> JF Mezei writes: >> > Mr Main, with ragards to your patches issue. >> > >> > In the late 1990s, the weenies would convince management to >> deploy >> > Windows because it was a lot cheaper, there were a lot more >> available >> > staff and it had an assured future. When asked if there was a >> virus >> > problem, the answer would inevitably be "we'll set it up properly >> and it >> > won't affect us". >> > >> > By the time they got hit with I LOVE YOU or some other >> debilitating >> > event, their deployment of windows was so entrenched that it was >> > impossible to change to a real OS so thet learned to live with it >> and >> > try to minimise the damage. >> > >> > Your story of Vista switching back to VMS because of a windows >> virus is >> > very good, but unfortunatly rare. >>=20 >> And probably not the whole (or even the real) story as what people >> use >> Vista for can not be done on VMS. Vista is a desktop operating >> system, >> not a server operating system. >>=20 >> bill >>=20 > > Bill... > > mmm.. you missed the point. > > The earlier URL points to a company called VISTA that packages or uses a > mission critical software package called SCADA on a number of platforms. > One of their Customers was running Windows Server and was down for 2 > days because of a nasty virus. Subsequently, they have since switched to > OpenVMS on Integrity and by the report, the migration went very well. > > Absolutely zero to do with client stuff. OK, sorry. When one uses the terms "Vista" and Windows in the same paragraph today certain assumptions are bound to be made. So then, this just goes back to the original argument about someone was doing with a servert hat allowed it to come in contact with a virus!! If the VMS system is managed as badly as the Windows system obviously was they are bound to have problems even with VMS. Not necessarily the same problems, but problems and possibly security problems. No OS is immune from the effects of incompetent sys admins. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:40:12 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468ce6ad@mvb.saic.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > "Main, Kerry" writes: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] >>> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >>> Sent: July 5, 2007 12:43 PM >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>> =20 >>> In article <90d24$468d09bd$cef8887a$5386@teksavvy.com>, >>> JF Mezei writes: >>>> Mr Main, with ragards to your patches issue. >>>> >>>> In the late 1990s, the weenies would convince management to >>> deploy >>>> Windows because it was a lot cheaper, there were a lot more >>> available >>>> staff and it had an assured future. When asked if there was a >>> virus >>>> problem, the answer would inevitably be "we'll set it up properly >>> and it >>>> won't affect us". >>>> >>>> By the time they got hit with I LOVE YOU or some other >>> debilitating >>>> event, their deployment of windows was so entrenched that it was >>>> impossible to change to a real OS so thet learned to live with it >>> and >>>> try to minimise the damage. >>>> >>>> Your story of Vista switching back to VMS because of a windows >>> virus is >>>> very good, but unfortunatly rare. >>> =20 >>> And probably not the whole (or even the real) story as what people >>> use >>> Vista for can not be done on VMS. Vista is a desktop operating >>> system, >>> not a server operating system. >>> =20 >>> bill >>> =20 >> Bill... >> >> mmm.. you missed the point. >> >> The earlier URL points to a company called VISTA that packages or uses a >> mission critical software package called SCADA on a number of platforms. >> One of their Customers was running Windows Server and was down for 2 >> days because of a nasty virus. Subsequently, they have since switched to >> OpenVMS on Integrity and by the report, the migration went very well. >> >> Absolutely zero to do with client stuff. > > OK, sorry. When one uses the terms "Vista" and Windows in the same > paragraph today certain assumptions are bound to be made. So then, > this just goes back to the original argument about someone was doing > with a servert hat allowed it to come in contact with a virus!! If > the VMS system is managed as badly as the Windows system obviously > was they are bound to have problems even with VMS. Not necessarily > the same problems, but problems and possibly security problems. No > OS is immune from the effects of incompetent sys admins. If I read you correctly you seem to be claiming that only incompetently managed Windows systems get infected. If so, you are far from correct. There are many documented cases of systems being hacked and/or infected even though they were up to date on patches and running current antivirus software (as well as other protections). Look up the impact of almost any zero-day exploit to name just one example. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 2007 20:09:02 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5f51euF3a323vU1@mid.individual.net> In article <468ce6ad@mvb.saic.com>, Mark Berryman writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] >>>> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >>>> Sent: July 5, 2007 12:43 PM >>>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>>> =20 >>>> In article <90d24$468d09bd$cef8887a$5386@teksavvy.com>, >>>> JF Mezei writes: >>>>> Mr Main, with ragards to your patches issue. >>>>> >>>>> In the late 1990s, the weenies would convince management to >>>> deploy >>>>> Windows because it was a lot cheaper, there were a lot more >>>> available >>>>> staff and it had an assured future. When asked if there was a >>>> virus >>>>> problem, the answer would inevitably be "we'll set it up properly >>>> and it >>>>> won't affect us". >>>>> >>>>> By the time they got hit with I LOVE YOU or some other >>>> debilitating >>>>> event, their deployment of windows was so entrenched that it was >>>>> impossible to change to a real OS so thet learned to live with it >>>> and >>>>> try to minimise the damage. >>>>> >>>>> Your story of Vista switching back to VMS because of a windows >>>> virus is >>>>> very good, but unfortunatly rare. >>>> =20 >>>> And probably not the whole (or even the real) story as what people >>>> use >>>> Vista for can not be done on VMS. Vista is a desktop operating >>>> system, >>>> not a server operating system. >>>> =20 >>>> bill >>>> =20 >>> Bill... >>> >>> mmm.. you missed the point. >>> >>> The earlier URL points to a company called VISTA that packages or uses a >>> mission critical software package called SCADA on a number of platforms. >>> One of their Customers was running Windows Server and was down for 2 >>> days because of a nasty virus. Subsequently, they have since switched to >>> OpenVMS on Integrity and by the report, the migration went very well. >>> >>> Absolutely zero to do with client stuff. >> >> OK, sorry. When one uses the terms "Vista" and Windows in the same >> paragraph today certain assumptions are bound to be made. So then, >> this just goes back to the original argument about someone was doing >> with a servert hat allowed it to come in contact with a virus!! If >> the VMS system is managed as badly as the Windows system obviously >> was they are bound to have problems even with VMS. Not necessarily >> the same problems, but problems and possibly security problems. No >> OS is immune from the effects of incompetent sys admins. > > If I read you correctly you seem to be claiming that only incompetently > managed Windows systems get infected. If so, you are far from correct. > There are many documented cases of systems being hacked and/or > infected even though they were up to date on patches and running current > antivirus software (as well as other protections). There is a lot more to admining any system than just that. Starting with a proper config. > Look up the impact > of almost any zero-day exploit to name just one example. I don't have to all I have to do is look at systems that are not being hacked/zombied/infected. A properly admined IT system, no matter what the OS, is going to be stable, secure and usefull. The reciprical also applies, no matter what the OS. The fact that the news is loaded with cases of systems being hacked only points out the fact that with the proliferation of IT systems has come a dearth of competent sysadmins. Just because you admined the 2 PC's in your high school library when you were a sophmore doesn't make you a sysadmin. Any more than the fact that you ran a web site on Linux out of your dad's garage during the dot-com boom made you an "IT Professional". Maybe, in the name of true investigative reporting, the journals running these aryicles should also publish the credentials of the parties responsible for maintaining the systems. Oh wait, if we did that we would have to stop bashing Windows, Unix. Can't have that now, can we..... bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:55:29 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468D84F1.5CF1D7DD@spam.comcast.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > > I keep wondering - why in the devil do you expect HP, or any other sane > company, to push a product that generates so much negative nonsense as this? > > FIND SOME BLINKING MARKETS AND START SELLING. How do we convince people to buy something that's "invisible"? > HP will sit up and notice that, and start backing you up. Don't hold your breath! > I'm about 60% > convinced that VMS can do everything I need it to do, and will save my > customers and myself money doing it. I belive it has all the technical > capabilities it needs to handle small and medium shops. It has the potentional > to grow to handle larger shops. VMS *DOES* handle larger shops. *THAT* is why HP doesn't want it! HP wants to sell UX. HP does NOT want VMS. (Usual disclaimer applies: prove me wrong!) > HP has huge name recognition, Somewhat true - more as a printer vendor than anything else, at least in the business world. > a very good reputation, Where have you been the past 10 years? > and some very good > tecnincal products. They have a good developer program that fully supports > OpenVMS, That has been found highly debatable. > and on top of that, they have co-marketing programs and other > benefits. ...as long as you sell what HP wants you to sell. > What they do not have ...and do not want... > is 1000 people out here finding solutions that OpenVMS > can fit into and make a decent profit. That, by the way, is the other 30% of > me that wonders if this is a vain exercise. Next question, please... > The other 10% is a worry that HP > won't develop the hardware needed to run VMS in a larger environment, A very valid concern > or that > VMS will not properly scale to a large transaction processing environment. They did. It was called, "Alpha". > Maybe it is not meant to. It *IS* meant to - but no longer can due to hardware platform limitations. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 22:44:38 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4FA07890-5544-470A-8D4E-C8F9DCB37769@raulersons.com> --Apple-Mail-321--772151110 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:55 PM, David J Dachtera wrote: > Paul Raulerson wrote: >> >> I keep wondering - why in the devil do you expect HP, or any other >> sane >> company, to push a product that generates so much negative >> nonsense as this? >> >> FIND SOME BLINKING MARKETS AND START SELLING. > > How do we convince people to buy something that's "invisible"? How do you think? The same way anybody sells anything. Know your product, know your customer needs, find the right fit, and the sell it to your customer. It is hard work! > >> HP will sit up and notice that, and start backing you up. > > Don't hold your breath! Gad's man - they already HAVE, or have you not noticed them trying to breath life into through the DSPP? > >> I'm about 60% >> convinced that VMS can do everything I need it to do, and will >> save my >> customers and myself money doing it. I belive it has all the >> technical >> capabilities it needs to handle small and medium shops. It has the >> potentional >> to grow to handle larger shops. > > VMS *DOES* handle larger shops. *THAT* is why HP doesn't want it! > Well, convince me of that. I sure don't see it historically being used in large shops - only mid-sized shops. That means it competes in the midrange market, not the mainframe market. I'm slowly learning (aided in no small part by the generous corrections provided by the knowledgeable members of this group! :) and setting aside assumptions, but I tell you in truth, it is not made easier by the whining! Yes, there are always valid axes to grind, but for heavens sake, don't cut your own throat while doing so! > HP wants to sell UX. HP does NOT want VMS. (Usual disclaimer > applies: prove me > wrong!) HP primarily wants to sell hardware, and only secondly operating systems. HP-UX scales well, but not into the mainframe range. Tandem scales into the mainframe range though. Itanium has the capability to do so, I believe. > >> HP has huge name recognition, > > Somewhat true - more as a printer vendor than anything else, at > least in the > business world. > Know anyone who does not know who HP is? They may not know about OpenVMS, but that is hardly HP's fault! They may have made some missteps along the way, but even when DEC was still an independent thriving company, not a lot of people knew what VMS was- and guess what? That could just as well have been attitude brought over from Ken Olsen; 1977- "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home." Ridiculous arrogance and a misjudgment that eventually resulted in his departure from DEC. If memory serves me correct, which is does. :) >> a very good reputation, > > Where have you been the past 10 years? Talking to people in the real world of course... most of them think of HP as a very high technology company, and a builder of products that "just work." > >> and some very good >> tecnincal products. They have a good developer program that fully >> supports >> OpenVMS, > > That has been found highly debatable. > >> and on top of that, they have co-marketing programs and other >> benefits. > > ...as long as you sell what HP wants you to sell. > >> What they do not have > > ...and do not want... > Good heavens man - they are not insane. They certainly want 1000 people out here selling products. They don't care if it is OpenVMS or HP-UX- as long as people buy them. This is actually the core of my disagreement with you, you know. HP is basically a well run company, and deals more with facts than with "wants." If something sells or makes a profit, it will be supported. It has value! >> is 1000 people out here finding solutions that OpenVMS >> can fit into and make a decent profit. That, by the way, is the >> other 30% of >> me that wonders if this is a vain exercise. > > Next question, please... > >> The other 10% is a worry that HP >> won't develop the hardware needed to run VMS in a larger environment, > > A very valid concern > It is a dratted expensive thing to do, developing hardware these days. And far from an easy task. Large scale computing requires both heavy engineering skills, talented support, and dedicated inventive marketing and sales. None of which comes cheap. Can VMS compete in this market? Who knows, I sure don't. I'm impressed the HP people believe enough in it to roadmap it out and at the very least, appear to be following that roadmap. >> or that >> VMS will not properly scale to a large transaction processing >> environment. > > They did. It was called, "Alpha". Huh - well, Alpha never seemed to have the same target audience as say, POWER chips do. A port to POWER would give VMS some really interesting things to look at, like LPARS for instance, CPU load balancing, and oh year- really fast chips that can scale to Mainframe capabilities. Aport to Intel, on the other hand, would make VMS nearly unbeatable in the midrange market, depending upon pricing and support. Itanium is a big question to me. Undoubtedly, it has the design chops to take it to world class mainframe level performance. Will Intel and HP take it there? Only if there are sales to support it. Otherwise, the only hope for VMS, as I see it, is a port to mainstream processor. -Paul > >> Maybe it is not meant to. > > It *IS* meant to - but no longer can due to hardware platform > limitations. > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > --Apple-Mail-321--772151110 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Jul 5, 2007, at = 6:55 PM, David J Dachtera wrote:

Paul Raulerson wrote:

I keep wondering - why in the devil do you expect = HP, or any other sane
company, to push a product = that generates so much negative nonsense as this?

FIND = SOME BLINKING MARKETS AND START SELLING.

How do = we convince people to buy something that's = "invisible"?

How do you think? The same = way anybody sells anything. Know your product, know your customer needs, = find the right fit, and the sell it to your = customer.=A0
It is hard work!

=
HP will sit up and notice = that, and start backing you up.

Don't = hold your breath!

Gad's man - they already = HAVE, or have you not noticed them trying to breath life into through = the DSPP?=A0


I'm about 60%
convinced that VMS can do everything I need it to = do, and will save my
customers and myself money = doing it. I belive it has all the technical
to grow to handle larger = shops.
VMS *DOES* handle larger shops. = *THAT* is why HP doesn't want it!


Well, convince me of = that. I sure don't see it historically being used in large shops - only = mid-sized shops. That means it competes in the midrange market, not the = mainframe market. I'm slowly learning (aided in no small part by the = generous corrections provided by the=A0knowledgeable members of this = group! :)=A0 and setting aside assumptions, but I tell you in truth, it = is not made easier by the whining! Yes, there are always valid axes to = grind, but for heavens sake, don't cut your own throat while doing = so!=A0

HP wants to sell UX. HP = does NOT want VMS. (Usual disclaimer applies: prove me
wrong!)

HP primarily wants to = sell hardware, and only secondly operating systems. HP-UX scales well, = but not into the mainframe range. Tandem scales into the mainframe range = though. Itanium has the capability to do so, I = believe.


HP has huge name recognition,
=

Somewhat true - more as a printer vendor than = anything else, at least in the
business = world.
Know anyone who does not = know who HP is? They may not know about OpenVMS, but that is hardly HP's = fault!=A0 They may have made some missteps along the way, but even when = DEC was still an independent thriving company, not a lot of people knew = what VMS was- and guess what? That could just as well have been attitude = brought over from Ken Olsen; 1977- "There is no reason for any = individual to have a computer in his home." Ridiculous arrogance and = a=A0misjudgment that eventually resulted in his departure from DEC. If = memory serves me correct, which is does. :)=A0

=
a very good = reputation,

Where have you been the past 10 = years?

Talking to people in the real = world of course... most of them think of HP as a very high technology = company, and a builder of products that "just = work."=A0


and some very good
tecnincal products. They have a good developer = program that fully supports

That has been found highly = debatable.

=
and on top of that, they = have co-marketing programs and other

...as long as you sell what HP = wants you to sell.
What they do = not have
...and do not want...


=
is 1000 people out here = finding solutions that OpenVMS
can fit into = and make a decent profit. That, by the way, is the other 30% = of
me that wonders if this is a vain = exercise.

Next question, = please...

The other 10% is a worry that = HP
won't develop the hardware needed to run VMS in = a larger environment,

A very valid concern


It is a dratted = expensive thing to do, developing hardware these days. And far from an = easy task. Large scale computing requires both heavy engineering skills, = talented support, and dedicated inventive marketing and sales. None of = which comes cheap.=A0

Can VMS compete in = this market? Who knows, I sure don't. I'm impressed the HP people = believe enough in it to roadmap it out and at the very least, appear to = be following that roadmap.=A0

or that
VMS will not properly scale to a large transaction = processing environment.

They did. It = was called, "Alpha".

Huh - well, Alpha never = seemed to have the same target audience as say, POWER chips do. A port = to POWER would give VMS some really interesting things to look at, like = LPARS for instance, CPU load balancing, and oh year- really fast chips = that can scale to Mainframe capabilities. Aport to Intel, on the other = hand, would make VMS nearly unbeatable in the midrange market, depending = upon pricing and support.=A0

Itanium is a big = question to me. Undoubtedly, it has the design chops to take it to world = class mainframe level performance. Will Intel and HP take it there? Only = if there are sales to support it. Otherwise, the only hope for VMS, as I = see it, is a port to mainstream processor.=A0

-Paul


=
Maybe it is not meant = to.

It *IS* meant to - but no longer can due to hardware = platform limitations.
--=A0
David J = Dachtera
dba DJE Systems


Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:



=
= --Apple-Mail-321--772151110-- ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 2007 18:19:52 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5f4r28F3a796tU3@mid.individual.net> In article , JF Mezei writes: > David J Dachtera wrote: > >> Took heavy fire last evening. Almost constant report from exploding ordnance, >> pinned down by heavy barrage at times. >> >> Survived the night. No casualties. > > 1200 Iraqi civilians died last month alone. How do you identify "an Iraqi civilian"? > 6 Canadians died in your afghanistan yesterday. Your president's > fireworks are still killing people every day. Really? And which American unit killed those Canadians? When did President Bush start sending Canadians to Afghanistan? Personally, I have changed my opinion. I, too, think we should bring all our troops home. Not just from Iraq and Afghanistan but from Korea, Germany, England and everywhere else outside the US. And we should place them along the north and south borders and keep all foreigners out of the country. Including all those snowbirds with the Quebec license plates who live down here 6 months of the year without paying a penny in taxes and drive on our highways totally ignoring laws like speed limits!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:50:19 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <468dca0b$0$25492$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 5-7-2007 20:19 Bill Gunshannon wrote... > Personally, I have changed my opinion. I, too, think we should bring > all our troops home. Not just from Iraq and Afghanistan but from Korea, > Germany, England and everywhere else outside the US. And we should place > them along the north and south borders and keep all foreigners out of > the country. Including all those snowbirds with the Quebec license plates > who live down here 6 months of the year without paying a penny in taxes > and drive on our highways totally ignoring laws like speed limits!! Welcome to the land of the free and the home of the brave. So free and so brave that you, Bill, like to build fence all around it. Well, if it keeps you in... Why bother in the first place? You are already owned by China anyway. Ever heard of earning money before spending it? Look at the USA national balance and redefine bankrupcy. Remember when dollars used to be real money? Wilm Boerhout The Netherlands OK, I admit, I had a bad night, but still, I can't let this provincialism go by unanswered. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:42:23 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: July the 4th Message-ID: <000101c7bf90$6d98e140$48caa3c0$@com> It's a *very* big country, and a free one. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but it doesn't mean it will ever happen. Heck, we even have a radical mechanism for getting rid of presidents we don't like, and we exercise it every four years too! :) -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Wilm Boerhout [mailto:w5OLD.PAINTboerhout@planet.nl] > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:50 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: July the 4th > > on 5-7-2007 20:19 Bill Gunshannon wrote... > > > Personally, I have changed my opinion. I, too, think we should bring > > all our troops home. Not just from Iraq and Afghanistan but from > Korea, > > Germany, England and everywhere else outside the US. And we should > place > > them along the north and south borders and keep all foreigners out of > > the country. Including all those snowbirds with the Quebec license > plates > > who live down here 6 months of the year without paying a penny in > taxes > > and drive on our highways totally ignoring laws like speed limits!! > > Welcome to the land of the free and the home of the brave. So free and > so brave that you, Bill, like to build fence all around it. Well, if it > keeps you in... Why bother in the first place? You are already owned by > China anyway. Ever heard of earning money before spending it? Look at > the USA national balance and redefine bankrupcy. Remember when dollars > used to be real money? > > Wilm Boerhout > The Netherlands > > OK, I admit, I had a bad night, but still, I can't let this > provincialism go by unanswered. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 06:44:10 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Memory problem Message-ID: Hi Rob, Have you tried lib$show_vm? (or whichever one it is that produces bytes allocated but not yet freed) Some compilers get most of their VM up front so you could call this once before you process the file and once after and the figure should be the same. Are you sure you check the status after all calls to the VM routines? Are you combining memory chunks in your free_vm calls? (But delete_vm_zone should be a big eenough hammer) Are you sure the arguments to the 1500th call to VM haven't themselvs been corrupted (asking for -1 bytes or something) Cheers Richard Maher wrote in message news:1183640295.114913.76000@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > Hello, > > I have a problem that I would be most helpful for any help or pointers > anyone can give me. > > I am debugging a program that processes say 2000 files in a session. > Some of these files contain small amounts of data, other contain large > amounts of data. The program uses calloc() and free() to manage > dynamic memory. > > I have since replaced the calloc() and free() calls with LIB$GET_VM > etc... to help with debugging. > > The program runs fine, processing small and large files, until say > file 1500. Then there is a dynamic memory allocation failure (the LIB > $GET_VM returns LIB$_INSVIRMEM) on a large file. If I put this file at > the start of processing, or say file #2 or #3, the memory is allocated > fine. This would obviously (?) indicate a memory leak somewhere. > > But I've investigated everything, and I can't find a memory leak. I > even used the LIB$DELETE_VM_ZONE function after each file is processed > (and re-creating before the next file) to clear the memory. I used the > code at http://www.eight-cubed.com/examples/framework.php?file=lib_vm.c > to help, and no errors are returned until the 1500th (for example) > file when it fails due to calling LIB$FREE_VM on a NULL pointer (which > is a NULL pointer because of the LIB$_INSVIRMEM mentioned above). > > I am certain that none of my calls to calloc() or malloc() are causing > the memory leak, and I am resetting the zone anyway so shouldn't this > manage any memory leaks that might occur. > > But given it works when it is one of the first few files, I am > confused. > > Could one of the earlier C-library function calls be allocating and > not freeing dynamic memory? > > ANy ideas? > > Thanks, > Rob > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:55:35 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1183676135.416852.298940@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 6:10 pm, Keith Parris wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > > Now, if HP mentions this URL in a real press release sent out the news > > wires, then it is OK. > > I asked about a press release, and the answer was: This is an > advertising campaign. You don't send out press releases to announce > advertising campaigns. > > Press release or no, the press certainly seems to have noticed it, as > we're starting to see entries on the web from publications like > Computerworld, TechWorld, Network World, and my favorite, OpenVMS.org. > > > But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP > > > main pages, people won't stumble onto it. > > There's a link there now from the main HP website. Cool! Way to go, hp!!! Let's have more, esp. for OpenVMS! Thank you. > And the videos made it onto YouTube also: > > Disaster-Proof > YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI > HP website: http://hp.com/go/disasterproof/ > > Bulletproof XP > YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnjb1WVkhmU > HP website: http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/cache/320954-0-0-0-121.html AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:23:15 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: ... > Sorry > > "; or create new accounts with full user rights" is obviously talking about an > attacker being able to create fully privileged user accounts. > It is just expanding on the types of activities that an attacker could > carry out once they had gained complete control of the system. > Since one of the list items "view, change, or delete data" is itself a list of > actions which can be performed on data semi-colons are used to separate the > list items. The semi-colon is a powerful punctuation mark which is either used > in complicated lists such as this or to separate closely related but > independent clauses. > Neither of those functions would allow the phrase "with full user rights" to > distribute over all the items in the list. > > > To distribute those words over the list you would need some additional > punctuation such as > > " > An attacker could then install programs; view, change, or delete data; or > create new accounts: with full user rights. > " ... > You are simply misinterpreting the phrasing. > >> What I had in mind was the more common phrasing reflected in MS07-035, >> where it says "An attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability >> could take complete control of an affected system" but then clarifies >> that as follows: "An attacker who successfully exploited this >> vulnerability could gain the same user rights as the local user. Users >> whose accounts are configured to have fewer user rights on the system >> could be less impacted than users who operate with administrative user >> rights." >> > > I agree Microsoft use this, and the similar phrasing I mentioned above, when > that is indeed the case. However in this and other cases they do not use that > phrasing. Instead they clarify that the user could > "install programs; view, change, or delete data; or create new accounts with > full user rights". You really could do with a bit more humility, David. I admitted that the phrasing you quote in your last sentence above was subject to varying interpretations, and you would have been wise to do the same. Because, you see, MS includes *exactly* the same phrasing (that you claim immediately above that they do not use) in MS-07-035 (which they have clarified as I quoted above as meaning in that case only that the attacker gains the same privileges as the user, and thus only gains complete control of the system if the user has complete privileges): see the first paragraph in the FAQ section for MS07-035. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:02:13 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <468D8685.AFE7DF94@spam.comcast.net> Keith Parris wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote: > > Now, if HP mentions this URL in a real press release sent out the news > > wires, then it is OK. > > I asked about a press release, and the answer was: This is an > advertising campaign. He/She was joking, right? > You don't send out press releases to announce > advertising campaigns. Since when? > Press release or no, the press certainly seems to have noticed it, as > we're starting to see entries on the web from publications like > Computerworld, TechWorld, Network World, and my favorite, OpenVMS.org. > > > But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP > > main pages, people won't stumble onto it. > > There's a link there now from the main HP website. > > And the videos made it onto YouTube also: > > Disaster-Proof > YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI > HP website: http://hp.com/go/disasterproof/ > > Bulletproof XP > YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnjb1WVkhmU > HP website: http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/cache/320954-0-0-0-121.html Seems the word about marketing VMS is getting out, much to HP's shagrin. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:03:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1a72e$468d8717$cef8887a$22066@TEKSAVVY.COM> Keith Parris wrote: > I asked about a press release, and the answer was: This is an > advertising campaign. You don't send out press releases to announce > advertising campaigns. Ex-squeeze me ???? Thus Sunday, Boeing will hold a little shing ding in Seattle to unveil the first prototype of its new 787 carbon-fibre aircraft. Press releases galore, including which satellite/cable providers around the world will pickup the show. If VMS were not mentioned in the video, I'd bet HP would have sent out a press release announcing the availability of this video on the HP web site, youtube etc, as well as pointing media to some HP resource that provide them broadcast quality video. If VMS were not prohibited from sending our press releases, it could have/should have sent one out stating that in a recent test, it was VMS that came back first and that it is VMS that has world leading clustering and disaster tolerance , the best of the best and that people go go to http://www.hp.com/go/vms/disasterproof where they would be presented with a link to the video, a link to that PDF document that provides more information about it, and some text from you explaining how the VMS system was setup and explaining what happens when the remove node disapears. It is called initiative. And until Hurd removes the lead bullets and chains from VMS management, all those possible marketing opportunities will continue to be lost. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:28:45 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1183681725.272308.322140@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> send out press releases to announce > advertising campaigns. > > Press release or no, the press certainly seems to have noticed it, as > we're starting to see entries on the web from publications like > Computerworld, TechWorld, Network World, and my favorite, OpenVMS.org. > > > But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP > > > main pages, people won't stumble onto it. > > There's a link there now from the main HP website. > You need to select "Large Enterprise Business" to see the link, though. Why does HP think that Small (<$1 billion) & Medium (<$1billion < $10 billion) cap businesses can't afford or don't want disaster proof IT? Seems like all or most of the goodies that make OpenVMS disaster proof are affordable to many of those companies. And, there's a h*ll of a lot more of them than the <$10 billionaires. > And the videos made it onto YouTube also: > > Disaster-Proof > YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI I've sent this link to many of my friends (techies and laypersons alike) who for years have listened to me talk about OpenVMS and gotten that "glazed look" in their eyes. The ones that I've heard back from thought it was cool, and except for the initial mention of XP (thinking it had something to do with WinXP) they *got* it. There was that finally resolved worry about the fish (OMG! They blew up the fish! How could they blow up the fish after telling us their names and everything!) that was so intended and really *makes* the video . Good job to all who were involved! Keep it going! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:16:22 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: SSL/TLS Stuff (was Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server)) Message-ID: Hi Ruslan (or anyone), Was it you I helped with that UWSS that looked up SYSUAF? (and who now feels honour-bound to return the favour and help me with this question(s) :-) [1] I saw your code and the SSL_Read calls but I can't find any mention in there, or the (minimalist) OpenSSL docs, about how to handle TCP/IP Out-Of-Band character processing. I believe the SSLv3 specification explicitly states that the OOB data is to be packaged up as a normal SSL record (albeit wrappering a single byte) but it doesn't say much sbout how the receiving end gets told about it. Flag? Record Type? Any ideas? Is there a SSL_Select somewhere? Is there a MSG_OOB flag on the read somewhere? (How do you do a MSG_PEEK in SSL for that matter?) [2] Assuming that OpenSSL somehow surfaces the interface for OOB transmission, can anyone see any reason why STUNNEL doesn't support it? (unless it's "inlined") [3] If OpenSSL is now a System Integrated Product (SIP) why is C the only supported interface? It looks about as "Integrated" as a buttock boil! Cheers Richard Maher "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote in message news:9577ECA761293C77F6B6D9886F6B7033@NNTP.DeltaTel.RU... > Hello! > > > > 2. If necessary, tell your client that you're going to use APOP. > > There is a POP3 with TLS support (TLS is supported by most POP3 clients), just > got it and use it, and lost an interest to the problem. > > > > -- > + WBR, OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker ............. Skype: SysMan-One + > Delta Telecom JSC, IMT-MC-450(CDMA2000) cellular operator > Russia,191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3 Cel: +7 (812) 716-3222 > +http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru ............. Frying on OpenVMS only + ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:12:26 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:43:48 -0700, Paul Raulerson wrote: > A big Huh?! > I knew that was true on PC class servers, but I thought all larger > systems were fully redundant. For example, it does not matter what I am > running on the mainframe, if a CPU fails, a spare CPU picks up and > completes the instruction within fractional hunreths of a second. In > fact, you would not even know it happened unless you were at the > console, or the when the SE comes in to replace the failed part. Doesn't > really have anything to do with the OS in other words. > I was pretty sure the same was true on the high end Itanium systems. Is > this not so? > -Paul > The 360 (or was that 370?) had triply redundant CPU's and used voting. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 2007 18:13:28 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: <5f4qm7F3a796tU2@mid.individual.net> In article <468D2372.2D81B9FC@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> In article <1183638210.702955.114850@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> > On Jul 4, 12:35 pm, Andrew wrote: >> >> On 3 Jul, 15:40, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> > [...] >> >> Solaris 8 and more resilient/reliable for example Solaris 10 uniquely >> >> can survive the failure of a CPU without producing an outage, OpenVMS >> >> cannot and neither could Solaris 8. The improvements in Solaris 10 >> >> which would be seen as a higher % of HA Solaris servers run 10 are not >> >> factored into this "TCO analysis". >> > >> > Can you please elaborate on "surviving a CPU failure uniquely"? I've >> > had an average of over 27 MicroVAX systems online for almost 7 years >> > now and I can't recall a single CPU failure. Our Stratus can easily >> > survive CPU failure as each CPU board is duplexed. Actually, it never >> > got to a completely failed CPU board on the Stratus. We hot-swap them >> > when the error rate gets uncomfortably high. >> > >> > Also, I can't recall ever seeing any CPU fail on any system. I've seen >> > lots of other things fail, but not a CPU. >> >> One of the VAX 7000 we were running here had a CPU fail. Even though >> there were three more to spare it brought down the system and it would >> not restart until the errant CPU was removed. It then happily ran (with >> VMS) on the remaining three. But the one bad one was a complete show- >> stopper. > > Was it CPU #0 that failed? Nope, #3. They system would not even enter the "RUN" state with the bad CPU in any of the slots. (I tried, just for grins. I had already replaced the whole system with one of my backup systems so I had ample time to play and learn.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:23:47 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: <1183659827.850346.212580@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 12:20 pm, Andrew wrote: > On 5 Jul, 13:23, AEF wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 12:35 pm, Andrew wrote: > > > > On 3 Jul, 15:40, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > [...] > > > Solaris 8 and more resilient/reliable for example Solaris 10 uniquely > > > can survive the failure of a CPU without producing an outage, OpenVMS > > > cannot and neither could Solaris 8. The improvements in Solaris 10 > > > which would be seen as a higher % of HA Solaris servers run 10 are not > > > factored into this "TCO analysis". > > > Can you please elaborate on "surviving a CPU failure uniquely"? I've > > had an average of over 27 MicroVAX systems online for almost 7 years > > now and I can't recall a single CPU failure. Our Stratus can easily > > survive CPU failure as each CPU board is duplexed. Actually, it never > > got to a completely failed CPU board on the Stratus. We hot-swap them > > when the error rate gets uncomfortably high. > > On any SMP server with the exception of course of FT platforms such as > Tandem and Stratus the failure of a single CPU/bank of memory will > always cause the entire system to halt and reboot. This is true for HP- > UX, AIX, OpenVMS etc but not as it happens for Solaris 10. On Solaris > 10 if the CPU or Memory module in question is not running a kernel > thread then the OS does not restart instead the failed process that > was running on the CPU and any processes dependent on that process are > restarted considerably reducing downtime. On most larger Sun's CPU's/ > memory etc are hot pluggable so the filed and blacklisted component > can be removed and replace still without any downtime. > > > Also, I can't recall ever seeing any CPU fail on any system. I've seen > > lots of other things fail, but not a CPU. > > How about memory, I/O controllers etc. When you said failure I thought you meant death. You apparently meant just some kind of fatal error. Well, that's very different!!! I have had 4 crash/reboots on different systems due to memory errors. But the systems have run fine since. Had 1 CPU "error" (as shown under SHOW ERRORS) that didn't bring the system down. No I/O controller problems, unless you count a NIC card that sends but does not receive. Had a very few MicroVAX power supply deaths. Yes, that brought the system down! Lots of problems reading DDS-2 tapes. A few disks went bad, but I caught them in time. AEF > > Regards > Andrew Harrison- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:26:08 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > A big Huh?! > > I knew that was true on PC class servers, but I thought all larger > systems were fully redundant. That would be an incorrect assumption. > For example, it does not matter what I am > running on the mainframe, if a CPU fails, a spare CPU picks up and > completes the instruction within fractional hunreths of a second. In > fact, you would not even know it happened unless you were at the > console, or the when the SE comes in to replace the failed part. Doesn't > really have anything to do with the OS in other words. You are assuming what is referred to in this particular product space as a fault-tolerant configuration. Within the HP product space, this is the target for the Tandem lock-step configurations -- and lock-step was added into the Itanium architecture to allow this capability. With OpenVMS, SMP can (but not necessarily "will") tolerate a hard error, Whether or not the system tips over when the component fails depends how the particular component fails, and what code was running within the content of the component. The console programs on recent systems are intended to detect and skip a failed CPU or other failed component, should the system halt and restart. That said, the console might not be able to restart, depending on what failed. Hot-add capabilities for various hardware pieces have been around for a while on various hardware supported by OpenVMS, though I don't think hot-remove is around as yet for specific components. The high-end boxes tend to have these capabilities, particularly given the low-end tends to be rather price conscious. Hot-swap PCI slots are more expensive than vanilla PCI slots, having the ability to power down parts of the system and/or quiesce I/O buses is more expensive, etc. > I was pretty sure the same was true on the high end Itanium systems. Is > this not so? It is not so within Itanium systems, save for those configurations that implement lock-step. AFAIK, no OpenVMS box implements and supports lock-step, at least not since the days of the VAXft series hardware and the FTSS software package. The preferred solution toward this end within the OpenVMS environment is a cluster, and most any reasonable cluster configuration can survive component and system failures. (In IBM-speak, an OpenVMS Cluster is roughly analogous -- roughly -- to a SysPlex hardware configuration.) Multiple nodes within a cluster can read and write data records within a file, and record-level shared-write file system interlocking is transparently provided within the file system interface of OpenVMS. You can spend on lock-step, or you can deploy in parallel in a cluster or a grid, or you can deal with a reboot should a hardware failure arise. The driving question here is the cost of the downtime, and how much you're willing to spend to purchase and/or to code to avoid such. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:06:47 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: ... > You can spend on lock-step, or you can deploy in parallel in a cluster > or a grid, or you can deal with a reboot should a hardware failure > arise. My somewhat untutored impression is that the kind of recovery that Paul was describing is a fourth option. IIRC IBM's mainframe processors incorporate a goodly amount of error-checking-and-correcting firmware, such that if a processor error occurs there's sufficient internal state to back out the failed instruction and restart it on a different processor. So you don't have the expense of a completely-replicated (lock-stepped) processor, nor the fail-over latency of cluster-style execution (though you can fail over in the rarer cases where the processor's own internal migrate-and-retry facilities die with it), nor a reboot: they clearly think it's a good choice for their target market, but it may not be as practical a one for closer-to-commodity-level equipment. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:52:45 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: What happen to the Deathrow cluster Message-ID: In article <+H5KPLzC30+8@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , "Richard Maher" > writes: > > Hi Phil > > > > Last I heard it was a CPU fan, but it does seem to be taking some time. > > (Having said I personally am yet to donate money, hardware, or time to the > > cause so I'm certainly not gonna start whinging just yet :-) > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > As of today I find that gein is alive but will not let you log in yet, > (sys$announce specificaly says so). Manson is still not accepting > connections. I suspect that some progress is being made. The latest status report can be seen at http://deathrow.vistech.net/ -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:04:23 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Really basic question here: > > Does the amount of work to install/compile and then learn and build all > the structures and routines to use those "read made" XML parsers exceed > the amount of time it takes to simply write code to parse the one XML > format that you have to parse and take the values directly into your > application's structures ? Short answer: no. Long answer: Using existing and debugged libraries -- such as libxml2 -- is usually more efficient. Rolling your own custom source code when appropriate and appropriately-licensed source code is available, documented, maintained, and fully functional? That's not the approach I'd typically recommend. The existing XML libraries provide flexibility beyond the basic parsing, including syntax verification, ease of extensibility and any number of useful capabilities. The corollary here is the just-one-more-fix trap that folks fall into with the comma-separated list morass. CSV files can become surprisingly evil and twisty constructs, in the general case. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:32:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <4d87a$468db818$cef8887a$612@TEKSAVVY.COM> Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. At this time of the night, I cannot find an alpha executable for XMODEM on the net. This should really be in the freeware. In fact, it should come with VMS as a basic application. I realise that those IA64 things probably don't have serial ports. But there are still a lot of devices out there that have a serial port for emergency core software procedures (just as loading raw software back onto a router/switch). (I don't feel like installing fortran and then debugging the circa 1985 version of XMODEM that worked on VAX, so I will have to physically move the switch to the vax and use it there). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:33:17 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <1183699997.345892.284040@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 11:32 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Am stuck with an unbootable switch. Only option is to use its serial > console and XMODEM to transfer an older software version to it. > > At this time of the night, I cannot find an alpha executable for XMODEM > on the net. This should really be in the freeware. In fact, it should > come with VMS as a basic application. > > I realise that those IA64 things probably don't have serial ports. But > there are still a lot of devices out there that have a serial port for > emergency core software procedures (just as loading raw software back > onto a router/switch). > > (I don't feel like installing fortran and then debugging the circa 1985 > version of XMODEM that worked on VAX, so I will have to physically move > the switch to the vax and use it there). You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. Pre- Built OpenVMS executables are available at ( http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ck80binaries.html#vms ). Just scroll down far enough and you will find binaries for VAX/VMS 4.4 through OpenVMS IA64 V8.2. One of these should work for you. John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.365 ************************