INFO-VAX Sun, 08 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 370 Contents: Accessing other HSG80 controller RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Book: Inside the Machine Re: expanding shadow size Re: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th RE: July the 4th RE: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Part number for VMS 7.3-2 RE: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 RE: Printing pre-setup (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Re: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: XML for VMS RE: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:10:59 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Accessing other HSG80 controller Message-ID: If I do $ SHO DEV GG only one device shows up, $1$GGA2: so that when used as argument to set host/scsi gets me to the prompt HSG80-TOP> So I guess the above device name is generic to the HSG80 itself and not a specific controller. Each node has 2 HBAs connected to 2 switches, cross-strapped to the 2 HSG80 controllers. The objective is to connect to the other controller through SET HOST/SCSI to run frutil, for cache battery replacement. Of course, I could use a console cable, but this is more convenient. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: July 7, 2007 8:13 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > Ok, so lets assume that you have a well run IT shop that ensures > all > > applicable security patches are applied asap. Now, lets also > assume > > you have a well run IT shop that tests all important applications > > before they get rolled into production. This likely takes a few > days > > with setup-scripting etc. Lets also assume your Operations staff > is > > like 99% of most IT shops that do not really understand what is > > running on all your systems in terms of things like Services that > > require ActiveX or COM or any other low hanging things that might > be > > open for patching. > > > > Now, like any well run shop, you regularly visit the following RH > > site to pick up the monthly Linux security patches: > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/ (click > thread > > for each month) > > > > Now remember above note about OPS do not know much about any low > > level service requirements for most applications and there are > > hundreds of services on these many servers. > > > > Ok, so looking at this RH web site: > > > > In June 2007 alone, RH Linux had 29 *security* patches. > > > > In May 2007 alone, RH Linux had 42 *security* patches. > > > > So, please explain to me how the typical understaffed IT shop is > > expected to follow their normal processes, review these 71 > security > > patches, test all their important applications with the > applicable > > patches from this that apply from just this past 2 months. > > > > And also do their normal day-to-day support, fire fighting jobs > that > > is their primary role. >=20 > As some of us has tried to explain: >=20 > * OPS does not apply patches - system group does >=20 And as I stated in a thread - OPS (Operations) =3D Systems Admin + = Operators. Both work in Operations. I was not referring to Operators. IT = culture typicall refers to OPS as the entire system admin / operator = dept. > * the majority of systems are not patches because they live their > life far far away from the dangerous internet >=20 Internet is least of your concerns. See laptop, PDA, memory stick notes. > * if they update systems it will very likely be a selective update > based on tiers >=20 See my prev note about whether "buggies" will target web tier or data = tier. [snip ..] >=20 > It is the reality that Linux is marching into the data centers and > there does not seem to be a problem with patches. >=20 > Arne Well, while I agree Linux (Windows) is having an impact on some of the = smaller, "edge type", web app tier application environments, it is = primarily because of perceived (not real) cost reductions and there is = almost no one looking at this from a security or Operations perspective = i.e. the bigger picture.=20 And of course the Dev and other non-Operations groups pushing Linux do = not understand or care about the Operations impact, so if anyone in the = Operations Dept raises a valid concern, the Dev or supporting OS = religion group gets the "dino" label out. Much like Windows, this current Linux trend was part of the distributed = computing model from a number of years ago. Bottom line is that today, companies are planning major centralized = computing strategies (albeit with improved links to BU's) to reduce = their overall costs. This is why server and DC consolidation is so hot. = Even tier consolidation (App and DB on same OS) is happening now with = prod's like SAP to minimize OS instances.=20 Hence, companies will soon be facing the "which platform is best suited = to address our centralized computing strategies?" And the question that will have to be asked "is a legacy one app, one = server culture platform which has 5-20+ security patches per month going = to be our preferred centralized future platform or will something else = be better suited?" Times are definitely changing (again). What is old is new and what is new is old. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 10:29:54 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: July 7, 2007 8:13 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 [snip ..] >=20 > >>>> Systems that live a nice comfortable life far away from > >>>> internet and PC's do not get all those patches. [snip ..] > > Again, with all due respect, it just blows me away that these you > do > > not see these as major issues. It sounds like you have been > bitten by > > the hype bug. >=20 > It is the reality that Linux is marching into the data centers and > there does not seem to be a problem with patches. >=20 > Arne Arne, and others on the list interested in overall security.=20 I just did a quick bit of online research on recent external papers. First, check out this paper from "Proceedings of the Sixth Workshop on = the Economics of Information Security, Carnegie Mellon University, June = 7-8, 2007." http://weis2007.econinfosec.org/papers/43.pdf - this will (or should) = really spook you. It talks about issues common to all platforms such as accidental = disclosure etc, but it also points out the sophistication of the bad = guys that are now crawling all over the place. A prime focus is on the = dangers of P2P technologies that are now using common ports so as to = minimize detection or prevention schemes such as port lockouts etc.=20 One can easily defer that this sophistication includes looking for known = security holes on servers. Now, keep in mind: - all the personal laptops, PDAs, memory sticks accessing internal = systems directly on the internal network after coming straight from = external networks with little to zero security. - Dev/Test systems typically have copies of Prod data to ensure testing = compatibility (its not just prod systems that need patching) - Understaffed Operations (incl SysAdmins) unable to keep up with = testing services before rolling out monthly security into production. = After all, this is not a primary focus of their jobs. Now, try and convince me or others that patching known documented = security holes in *all* internal servers should not be a high priority. = Or that the history of that OS platform wrt to security issues should = not be a future major consideration. Or that implanting any server OS platform that has 5-20+ security issues = released each and *every* month is a decision that should not be = re-visited and/or replaced at some point in the future. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:44:03 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <46910643.54699B0@spam.comcast.net> "Main, Kerry" wrote: > [snip] > And as I stated in a thread - OPS (Operations) = Systems Admin + > Operators. Both work in Operations. Well, yes and no. In our shop, for organizational purposes, yes. However, Technology Operations (includes server admin.'s and back-end admin.'s) != Data Center Operations (lower skill/certifications-set). > I was not referring to Operators. IT culture typicall refers to OPS as > the entire system admin / operator dept. Not always. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:04:09 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: July 8, 2007 11:44 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > [snip] > > And as I stated in a thread - OPS (Operations) =3D Systems Admin + > > Operators. Both work in Operations. >=20 > Well, yes and no. >=20 > In our shop, for organizational purposes, yes. >=20 > However, Technology Operations (includes server admin.'s and back- > end admin.'s) > !=3D Data Center Operations (lower skill/certifications-set). >=20 > > I was not referring to Operators. IT culture typicall refers to > OPS as > > the entire system admin / operator dept. >=20 > Not always. >=20 Correct me if I am wrong, but even if these two groups have immediate managers that are different, do not both of these managers report up through a common IT Director or VP that has responsibility for both IT systems admin and day to day operations? That is certainly the case I have seen in most shops. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:37:26 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <469112C6.6C29D083@spam.comcast.net> "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > > Sent: July 8, 2007 11:44 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? > > > > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > [snip] > > > And as I stated in a thread - OPS (Operations) = Systems Admin + > > > Operators. Both work in Operations. > > > > Well, yes and no. > > > > In our shop, for organizational purposes, yes. > > > > However, Technology Operations (includes server admin.'s and back- > > end admin.'s) > > != Data Center Operations (lower skill/certifications-set). > > > > > I was not referring to Operators. IT culture typicall refers to > > OPS as > > > the entire system admin / operator dept. > > > > Not always. > > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but even if these two groups have immediate > managers that are different, do not both of these managers report up > through a common IT Director or VP that has responsibility for both IT > systems admin and day to day operations? > > That is certainly the case I have seen in most shops. By that measure, all parts of IT are likely to report upward to a single CIO/CTO or whatever. I don't/can't do what the operators do, and they don't/can't do what I and my partner do. Their first reporting level is to a person one step below the data center manager, where we report directly to the data center manager. Implicitly, that grants us a level of authority we need to be effective in our jobs. Operators don't do what SysAdmins do. It's not snobbish of us to make that distinction, just a reflection of differences in levels of responsibility and authorization. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 02:53:24 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Book: Inside the Machine Message-ID: <1183888404.662077.248400@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 7:35 am, Neil Rieck wrote: [...snip...] > > If you're interested, you can browse through 30 pages of this > book for free at www.amazon.com > Or you can read all of chapter 4 here: http://www.nostarch.com/insidemachine_toc.htm Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:04:46 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: expanding shadow size Message-ID: <46910B1E.F154B32E@spam.comcast.net> Michael Moroney wrote: > > Malcolm Dunnett writes: > > > I guess it doesn't really matter if the new space is > >identical on each disk as it hasn't been written and > >so no expectations should be made about getting anything > >meaningful from an unwritten block (including getting > >the same "garbage" on a subsequent read) - it just seemed like > >the "right thing" to do. Whenever I have used a > >hardware based raid solution to create a mirrorset the > >controller initializes the set by doing a full copy > >from one disk to the other - it just seemed that HBVS > >would want to do the same thing. > > It certainly violates the letter of the rule that all shadowset > members are identical. With dis-similar shadow-set members, the shadow-set is only as "big" as the "smallest" member's "Logical Volume Size". Lots of room to shoot one's own foot here. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:20:33 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article , "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > With some versions of Outlook, the reply in same format overrides the > plain text setting in the address book, and it appears that the > mail/news client then only had to see one HTML message in that session > from that address or news group to start sending all subsequent messages > in HTML. So if someone were replying to the DIGEST version of INFO-VAX, that would apply in all cases. When I was using Outlook, I found that sometimes the _only_ method of forcing plain text was to copy/paste the original into Notepad, compose the reply there, then copy/paste that into a _new_ mail. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:12:16 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: P. Sture [mailto:paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch] > Sent: July 8, 2007 8:21 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial > Sector, also?) >=20 > In article , > "John E. Malmberg" wrote: >=20 > > With some versions of Outlook, the reply in same format overrides > the > > plain text setting in the address book, and it appears that the > > mail/news client then only had to see one HTML message in that > session > > from that address or news group to start sending all subsequent > messages > > in HTML. >=20 > So if someone were replying to the DIGEST version of INFO-VAX, that > would apply in all cases. >=20 > When I was using Outlook, I found that sometimes the _only_ method > of > forcing plain text was to copy/paste the original into Notepad, > compose > the reply there, then copy/paste that into a _new_ mail. >=20 > -- > Paul Sture Paul, I posted this link in earlier note but it likely needs to be highlighted in future for anyone using Outlook clients. It talks about how setting different registry settings will produce different results in how plain text is sent out by Outlook. http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=3Dkb;EN-US;q278134 "How Outlook applies encoding to plain text e-mail messages" Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:33:13 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <46906117.2139AE63@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera wrote: > "P. Sture" wrote: > > [snip] > > There's a pretty comprehensive article entitled "Configuring Mail > > Clients to Send Plain ASCII Text". It covers all manner of clients: > > > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html > > Is it new enough to include Safari? > > Seems we have some Safari users here. The results so far have been at least as > unpredictable as LookOut! + Exchange. Do you mean OS X Mail instead of Safari? Safari is just a browser, so can only do email via a web interface AFAIK. OS X Mail.app is covered at: http://www.expita.com/nomime.html#macx Another common email client used on OS X is Entourage, as it's packaged with Office for Mac. Likewise covered: http://www.expita.com/nomime.html#entourageX -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:29:56 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <468FA9A9.79AC0BAE@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > > > > JF Mezei wrote: > > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > >> I replied to JF privately. > > >> > > > > > > I can confirm receiving a private reply to my question. > > > > > > Out of curiosity though, what determines the computing capacity needed > > > for a hospital ? > > > > > > I take it no hospital is large enough to have "transactions per second" > > > in the X-ray department ? Nor would they have stadium style turnstyles > > > at the admissions office processing patients per second ? > > > > > > Now do they measure surgeries in "surgeries per second"... > > > > > > Or is this really a question of having many many smaller "applications" > > > (from admissions to medication inventories), none of which require great > > > amounts of CPU horsepower, but when put together they do ? > > > > I think it's mostly medical and business records and the two might not > > go on the same computer. The billing department needs to know that you > > had an X-ray but not the radiologist's findings. The medical staff > > needs access to the patient's medical history and records but is not > > concerned with how much the patient is charged for each medication or > > procedure. > > > > A hospital system might have anywhere from several dozen to several > > hundred simultaneous users. > > ...or, in our case, several thousand. More than one hospital then? (Don't answer publicly if you don't want to.) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:10:49 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: July 7, 2007 8:23 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > >>> But like VMware, Xen only addresses HW consolidation - not OS > >>> consolidation. Yes, it does have some benefits in terms of HW > (power, > >>> cooling, space etc) savings. However, OS maintenance (managing, > >>> patching, licensing, upgrading) is where the big cost savings > are > >>> as > >>> this directly relates to FTE staffing counts - by far the > biggest > >>> slice of any IT budget. > >> OS maintenance big savings ???? > >> > >> In small departmental wintel file and print servers maybe. > >> > >> Not in the data centers. >=20 > > By far the biggest slice of any IT budget is staffing. From an > > Operations perspective, the number of staff you have is directly > > related to the number of OS images you need to support - not the > > number of servers. Remember the FTE per server ratio? >=20 > That was how I recall it 10-20 years ago when all servers were > running a ton of apps. >=20 > Things has changed. >=20 IT Staffing was the biggest slice of the IT budget in 1990. It still is = in 2007. Likely will still be in 2010. Nothing has changed. Part of the problem in reducing staffing costs further is that there is = so much patching, testing and deploying of patches that you need lots of = OPS, App QA, Testing staff to keep up.=20 > Ops use their time to monitor the apps - or more correctly: to > monitor > the monitor app that monitors the apps. >=20 I need some of that pixie dust. Almost all shops I have seen would love = to get to the point where they have truly automated systems, but they = simply do not have the time or resources to properly do this. Lets not = forget that planning, testing, building and deploying automated mgmt = systems is very complex work that is done in parallel with their day to = day jobs, rolling out new Apps and trying to keep up with security = and/or other important patches. > > Ask any outsourcer for the price of managing 10 physical servers > vs > > 10 OS images on one physical server and the number for the 10 OS > > images on one physical server will be approx 85% of the cost of > the > > 10 physical servers. Its because they know the work is in > managing, > > monitoring, licensing, patching and upgrading all of the OS > images. >=20 > Try read drweebs story about a real production environment. >=20 Please - every DC and/or server consolidation engagement I am involved = with (all platforms), one of the interview questions we ask the = different depts is "What are your top 5 IT pain issues?". Keeping = systems up to date with required or important patches is almost always = one of these top 5 from the OPS dept. And in many cases 1 of the top 3. = And remember that Dev/Test systems also need these patches because shops = want the environments to be the same as prod - in case of prob's. Ask any outsourcer about the above and you will get the same answer. = Outsourcing groups live and breathe OPS, so they really do understand = the issues and where the real costs are. Drweeb was talking about a prod environment (actually I think it was not = Windows/Linux, but I forget) where uptime is so important that they will = simply ignore the security risks until they can schedule some maint time = (perhaps 1 or 2 times per year). With 1 or 2 security patches every 1 or = 2 years, that is one thing. With 5-20+ per month, that is an entirely = different ball game.=20 Remember that RH Linux published 71 *security* patches in the last 2 = months (May-June) alone. See previous link to RH security site. Yes, not all apply to your environment, but someone needs to review all = of these to determine which of their servers require which patch. And = remember what I said that most prod OPS shops do not know what is = running on all their servers. And also the driver to maintain std OS = images. And remember all of those employee laptops, PDAs which just came from = home, airports, conferences, hotels etc and are now plugging *directly* = into your internal network loaded with the latest "buggies" looking for = known security holes in servers. > The first rule is: don't touch anything. > Unless it involves known security holes. Remember there is a huge = difference in visibility and risk between applying maint patches and = security patches. See laptop note above. Or unless your Company does not care about whether their data is = breached (which is ok as long as they make that decision up front). It's the OPS depts head which will be on the table if a major breach = occurs - not the development dept. > >> Automated. > >> > >> And not that many systems gets patched anyway. > > > > Wow - now that is a scary point to make. >=20 > Have you ever met any RHEL site where they roll patches out > on all systems all the time like you imagine ? >=20 Yes, they have automated patching systems, but most Windows/Linux shops = I have been involved with do not test their important Apps before = rolling these patches out to Prod. Or they are very far behind in their = patches. They have simply given up as there are just to many patches. = Hence, they roll them out when they can and hope for the best. That is not how real mission critical shops run their IT business.=20 > > For any med-large DC, that is certainly not the case as OPS folks > are > > constantly struggling with keeping servers up to date. >=20 > Web tier: yes. Backend systems: nope. >=20 > Arne See my not above about the laptops, PDAs, memory sticks etc loaded with = buggies connecting *directly* to your internal network. Do you think = these buggies are targeting web servers (with no data) or the back end = systems where all the juicy data is?=20 Course, I guess you could have a buggie install itself on a web server = that looks to intercept odbc, jdbc data requests. Again, no OS is 100% secure, but there is a huge difference in risk = between 1 or 2 security patches every 1 or 2 years vs. 5-20+ per month = (71 in the last 2 months May-June alone for RH). My $.02 is that one needs to ask "how can mission critical and/or = important environments afford those 5-20+ security patches per month = platforms?" Especially, if you are talking Exchanges, banks etc .. Perhaps there is some magic pixie dust out there that I need to take? Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:40:34 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <001301c7c154$cbe3b520$63ab1f60$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:11 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? [lots of good stuff snipped...] > And remember all of those employee laptops, PDAs which just came from > home, airports, conferences, hotels etc and are now plugging *directly* > into your internal network loaded with the latest "buggies" looking for > known security holes in servers. > Are you still finding major shops practicing this form of slow suicide? Good grief, this requirement is one of the reasons we moved to terminal servers - any laptop on the network has to be plugged in OUTSIDE the firewalls. No exceptions, not even for the CEO. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:07:40 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] > Sent: July 8, 2007 7:41 AM > To: Main, Kerry; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com] > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:11 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > [lots of good stuff snipped...] >=20 > > And remember all of those employee laptops, PDAs which just came > from > > home, airports, conferences, hotels etc and are now plugging > *directly* > > into your internal network loaded with the latest "buggies" > looking for > > known security holes in servers. > > >=20 > Are you still finding major shops practicing this form of slow > suicide? Good > grief, this requirement is one of the reasons we moved to terminal > servers - > any laptop on the network has to be plugged in OUTSIDE the > firewalls. No > exceptions, not even for the CEO. >=20 > -Paul Anyone who uses a personal device externally (laptop, PDA, memory stick at home, airport, hotel, conference) and then brings it in to work at the office (including the CEO). This likely applies to about 20-30% of today's typical workforce. And this number is getting higher as companies move to adopt "flex work" strategies that states flex workers do not have a dedicated cubicle. Instead, when in the office, they use one of the common workstation area that is shared among x workers. The concept is 10 shared WS areas can support 25-40 Sales, Consultants and other Cust facing employees as most are not in the office at any given time. More often than not, the employee is expected to use a company provided laptop instead of a local WS.=20 Key here is that the dedicated WS is rapidly shrinking in favour of mobile laptops - and that includes senior Execs who like being able to pick up their laptop with all their important files/emails and just go wherever they have to go (home, airport, hotel, conference).=20 And new PDA's (crackberries etc) have Bluetooth and other wireless access, so when in the office, their favourite PDA can access the local network directly. While laptops will have personal FW/AV sw installed, how many of these PDA's (miniature laptops) are running anything like Norton or McAfee?=20 None. I like to compare these PDAs with wireless access to cigarettes with no filters. (For those to young to remember, these were reaaaallly bad for your health). [Fwiw, I use a laptop personal FW/AV on my company laptop, but when I run Ad-aware or Spybot, they always seem to find stuff that needs to be deleted anyway] Course, when mobile employees get back into their office, they simply plug these personal devices (laptops, PDAs etc) in to the local office internal network, pickup a DHCP supplied address and away they go - accessing internal applications and systems on the "secure" side of the external firewall with all the buggies they picked up externally happily crunching away in the background on these devices. This is an issue faced by all Cust's and vendors today.=20 Note - there are ways to minimize (not eliminate) these risks, but very few companies are really tackling this issue head on.=20 :-) Its also why well documented and known security holes that are not addressed on the server side are so potentially damaging to any company. Especially when attacks are getting much more sophisticated i.e. you may not even know that sensitive data is quietly migrating from some internal system to some external competitor or bad guy.=20 In the past, the hackers would brag, perhaps an external web site was modified, there would be a public fuss, the hole would get closed and everyone went back to business as usual.=20 Today, you hear nothing, but data is quietly migrating away and the recipients do not brag or tell anyone but their closest buddies so the data gets used in ways which likely is not in the best interest of your company or Govt dept. Banks and stock exchanges etc are likely the biggest target, but other markets like medical, telecommunications, manufacturing etc are also at risk big time. As I mentioned before, the Internet is often the least of your worries.=20 So, think about this when you consider implementing a server platform that has 5-20+ security patches released each and *every* month. (RH Linux had 71 in May, June of this year alone). Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:53:03 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4691085F.FB243661@spam.comcast.net> "P. Sture" wrote: > > In article <468FA9A9.79AC0BAE@spam.comcast.net>, > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > > > > > > JF Mezei wrote: > > > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > > > >> I replied to JF privately. > > > >> > > > > > > > > I can confirm receiving a private reply to my question. > > > > > > > > Out of curiosity though, what determines the computing capacity needed > > > > for a hospital ? > > > > > > > > I take it no hospital is large enough to have "transactions per second" > > > > in the X-ray department ? Nor would they have stadium style turnstyles > > > > at the admissions office processing patients per second ? > > > > > > > > Now do they measure surgeries in "surgeries per second"... > > > > > > > > Or is this really a question of having many many smaller "applications" > > > > (from admissions to medication inventories), none of which require great > > > > amounts of CPU horsepower, but when put together they do ? > > > > > > I think it's mostly medical and business records and the two might not > > > go on the same computer. The billing department needs to know that you > > > had an X-ray but not the radiologist's findings. The medical staff > > > needs access to the patient's medical history and records but is not > > > concerned with how much the patient is charged for each medication or > > > procedure. > > > > > > A hospital system might have anywhere from several dozen to several > > > hundred simultaneous users. > > > > ...or, in our case, several thousand. > > More than one hospital then? (Don't answer publicly if you don't want > to.) One very large hospital. There is one even larger just to our north in the southern portion of a neighboring state. They were the ones who sounded the alarm about max'ing out 16-CPU Alphas and about I64 SuperDomes being unable to sustain the same load as their Alpha counterparts. There is also here in Metro Chicago an organization of circa. nine(9) hospitals whose combined operations add up to roughly 75% to 80% of our operation. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:54:37 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <469108BD.9CD31ECD@spam.comcast.net> "P. Sture" wrote: > > In article <46906117.2139AE63@spam.comcast.net>, > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > "P. Sture" wrote: > > > [snip] > > > There's a pretty comprehensive article entitled "Configuring Mail > > > Clients to Send Plain ASCII Text". It covers all manner of clients: > > > > > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html > > > > Is it new enough to include Safari? > > > > Seems we have some Safari users here. The results so far have been at least as > > unpredictable as LookOut! + Exchange. > > Do you mean OS X Mail instead of Safari? > > Safari is just a browser, so can only do email via a web interface > AFAIK. OS X Mail.app is covered at: > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html#macx > > Another common email client used on OS X is Entourage, as it's packaged > with Office for Mac. Likewise covered: > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html#entourageX See recent posts from Paul Raulerson. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:00:57 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <46910A39.38E3FF4A@spam.comcast.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com] > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:11 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > [lots of good stuff snipped...] > > > And remember all of those employee laptops, PDAs which just came from > > home, airports, conferences, hotels etc and are now plugging *directly* > > into your internal network loaded with the latest "buggies" looking for > > known security holes in servers. > > > > Are you still finding major shops practicing this form of slow suicide? Good > grief, this requirement is one of the reasons we moved to terminal servers - > any laptop on the network has to be plugged in OUTSIDE the firewalls. No > exceptions, not even for the CEO. Your IT staffing must be at least twice the usual for a corporation, with every position doubled: one staff for the intranet, one staff for the "DMZ" since, by your statement, the DMZ must include all portable desktops (i.e., the bulk of the technical (and, in our case, medical) staff and management/executive corps). -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:04:13 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > Yes, there are a few educated individuals here and there who realised > what was going on and were dead set against that administration. But the > USA electoral system concluded that the majority of americans supported > that administration and that is what the rest of the world sees. The majority of voters DID elect Bush the second time. The majority of voters did NOT elect Bush the first time, but he had a majority in the electoral system. One reason for the lack of credibility of the USA in the world is that they claim to be a democratic society, but the person who got the most popular votes (Al Gore, despite a) Nader getting an appreciable chunk of his votes (see below) and b) all the problems in Florida) did not get elected. If, say, Milosovic had implemented such an electoral system in Yugoslavia, the rest of the world would have (rightly) said "Whom are you trying to fool?". > Electoral systems can be very unfair/weird. In Canada, the now > opposition party chose a new leader. Neither of the 2 top candidates won > the leadership, it was the 3rd one who did. As a result, the Liberals > are now stuck with a boring, unelectable candidate who barely speaks > english. So instead of immediatly topling the current minority > government to force an election , the Liberals are letting the right > wing Reform party continue to govern canada because they know they would > lose an election if held with the current leader. > > The French system for presidential elections makes more sense: 2 rounds > of voting. Only 2 survive the first round. This ensures that the leader > is one of the 2 most popular persons. This shows the difference in perspective. You consider the French system better, I consider it worse. :-| The problem with the French system is the following. Assume there are five candidates, say three left-of-centre candidates and two right-of-centre candidate. Assume that the votes are 15/20/20/22/23. That is, 55% want a left-of-centre candidate. However, the runoff will be between the two right-of-centre candidates. The proper way to do this is not to have the runoff between the two top candidates in the first round, but rather to remove the candidate who did worst and have the runoff between the remaining candidates, iterating until there are just two left. This does not imply that many elections. Actually, one needs just one. Voters then rank candidates in order of preference. In the first round, everyone voted for their first-ranked candidate. In the second round, those whose first-ranked candidate is no longer there voted for their second-ranked candidate etc. > In the USA, the whole "primaries" process is still stuck in the horse > carriage days except that now, Indeed. This might have made some sort of sense back when the country was founded, but makes no sense today where communication is faster. (And this doesn't need voting machines etc---modern electoral systems can and do work with paper ballots.) > voters in some states get to know the > results of the election held in others states and hence this skews the > votes. Indeed. > And in both the last democratic race and the liberal race in Canada, the > winner wasn't chosen on electability, he was chosen based on his > political ingenuity to win the votes AT THE CONVENTION. Well, if the party elects the candidate, it's up to them how to do it. A party which can't come up with a good candidate is probably not good at other things either. And then there is the whole issueu of gerrymandering, which in some form or another almost always is an issue when there is the one-representative-per-district approach. The proper way to do things is proportional representation. (By the way, this does not necessarily imply that there are no representatives who feel that they represent a particular area of the country. One can have a system (such as in Germany) where each district elects a representative (based on simple majority, which is not a problem here), but at the same time casts a vote for proportional representation. The number of seats in parliament is determined SOLELY by this second vote, with each party deducting the number of seats held by directly elected representatives. The best of both worlds, and works fine with paper ballots. The two-party system, such as in the US, France (though at least they have runoffs, though this does not always make sense as noted above) and the UK is a farce. One can have, say, 20--30 per cent of the population who regularly vote but whose party has NO seats in the parliament. From the point of view of proportional representation, a two-party system is only slightly better than a one-party system. Remember that former East Germany called itself the German Democratic Republic. Did that make it democratic? No. Nor does any other country calling itself democratic make itself democratic unless deeds (seats in parliament at least roughly correspond to the votes cast) follow words. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 07:25:02 GMT From: "Scott" Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: the leadership of Mr. Dion is only one of many reasons why the Liberals don't want to bring down the government of Mr. Harper (Conservative Party of Canada not Reform). do the words "sponsorship scandal" ring a bell... "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:c6beb$468fae98$cef8887a$9169@TEKSAVVY.COM... > Electoral systems can be very unfair/weird. In Canada, the now opposition > party chose a new leader. Neither of the 2 top candidates won the leadership, > it was the 3rd one who did. As a result, the Liberals are now stuck with a > boring, unelectable candidate who barely speaks english. So instead of > immediatly topling the current minority government to force an election , the > Liberals are letting the right wing Reform party continue to govern canada > because they know they would lose an election if held with the current leader. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 04:43:00 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article , JF Mezei > writes: > >> Yes, there are a few educated individuals here and there who realised >> what was going on and were dead set against that administration. But the >> USA electoral system concluded that the majority of americans supported >> that administration and that is what the rest of the world sees. > > The majority of voters DID elect Bush the second time. My impression is that this was the election to which JF was referring. > The majority of > voters did NOT elect Bush the first time, but he had a majority in the > electoral system. One reason for the lack of credibility of the USA in > the world is that they claim to be a democratic society, We nominally are, but our *federal government* is nominally a 'republic' (more specifically, a 'federal republic'), not a pure 'democracy'. Without being at all expert in the matter, my impression is that pure democracies are rather thin on the ground. England certainly doesn't elect its Prime Minister by straight popular vote, for example (though it uses a notably different process than our electoral college): would you say that significantly detracts from England's 'credibility'? For that matter, even a pure *representative* democracy differs significantly from *pure* democracy (as practiced in ancient Athens, as I understand it). but the person > who got the most popular votes (Al Gore, despite a) Nader getting an > appreciable chunk of his votes (see below) You are seriously confused: Ralph Nader only received the votes of those people who elected to vote for him, just as Gore, Bush, and the other candidates did. None of those candidates 'owned' any votes (not even the ones that they themselves received) - that's not how voting works (at least not here). And it's not at all clear that there's any vastly superior virtue to electing a President by straight popular vote (or some kind of tournament resulting in a two-candidate finale) rather than via our electoral system (which - only infrequently - results in situations where *close* races go to the candidate with slightly fewer votes, but by definition such an outcome does not *seriously* distort the process: close to half the voters get their choice - and close to half do not - either way; only in a race where a third candidate garners a *large* portion of the votes might a tournament system produce a significantly different result, and even then the choice between the two systems remains somewhat a matter of taste). As long as everyone agrees on what the rules are going in, then quite a few rather different approaches can each be reasonably democratic. and b) all the problems in > Florida) The problems in Florida were an entirely different matter, and a serious threat to the integrity of our republic (especially since the final check that should have corrected them failed utterly due to partisan influence that theoretically should not have been present at all). did not get elected. If, say, Milosovic had implemented such > an electoral system in Yugoslavia, the rest of the world would have > (rightly) said "Whom are you trying to fool?". I suggest not: our electoral system, while in some ways a bit antiquated, is a perfectly reasonable approximation to democratic election. The Florida debacle and subsequent blatant abrogation of ultimate responsibility by our Supreme Court, on the other hand, was pure banana republic - and rightly merits even more derision than it received. [lots of personal opinion about what 'the best system for elections' might be snipped] - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:07:12 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article , Bill Todd writes: > Without being at all expert in the matter, my impression is that pure > democracies are rather thin on the ground. England certainly doesn't > elect its Prime Minister by straight popular vote, for example (though > it uses a notably different process than our electoral college): would > you say that significantly detracts from England's 'credibility'? As I indicated, England also suffers the disadvantages of a two-party system. I don't think that electing the chief (prime minister, chancellor, president, whatever) directly is essential. In fact, I don't think it's a good idea. I prefer systems in which one essentially votes for a party, and the parliament then elects the chief. This reflects the will of the voter more than an "all or nothing" system where one's candidate either wins, or he doesn't. Also, it assures that the chief has a backing in parliament. Checks and balances can still exist, but the stalemate situation is avoided. (And if the chief really goofs, he can be ousted before the next regular election in a vote of no confidence. With the American system, as long as he doesn't do anything actuually illegal (and, often, even then), the chief can do what he wants once he is elected. A parliamentary system is better in that respect, because he knows if he departs radically from the platform he was elected on, he can be ousted. > For that matter, even a pure *representative* democracy differs > significantly from *pure* democracy (as practiced in ancient Athens, as > I understand it). Yes, but this is a practical matter. I think division of labour is a good idea. I don't WANT to vote personally on every decision. (However, I think that a referendum is a good idea, as long as a) it is suggested by collecting signatures (not by the parliament), b) it is a pure yes/no decision and c) a court has declared before the fact that it is in line with the constitution (otherwise one needs a referendum to change the constitution first). But these are for exceptional cases when parliament does not reflect the will of the voters. Parliament cannot always reflect the will of the voters on ALL issues. > but the person > > who got the most popular votes (Al Gore, despite a) Nader getting an > > appreciable chunk of his votes (see below) > > You are seriously confused: Ralph Nader only received the votes of > those people who elected to vote for him, just as Gore, Bush, and the > other candidates did. None of those candidates 'owned' any votes (not > even the ones that they themselves received) - that's not how voting > works (at least not here). Yes, of course, I abbreviated the discussion. What I meant was that probably almost everyone who voted for Nader would have voted for Gore, given the choice between Bush and Gore. That's what would have happened in a runoff situation (though as I pointed out this can lead to other problems). In the current system, their votes were "wasted". Assume a popular vote and assume(I know this is not what happened; it's just an illustration) that Nader got 10%, Gore 43% and Bush 47%. Bush gets elected, even though a) most people didn't vote for him and b) given the choice between Bush and Gore, most people would vote for Gore. Of course, most of these people realise that their votes on Nader were "wasted". There is the dilemma between voting for the best candidate, and voting for the best candidate who has a realistic chance. It is understandable that some people take the second approach, but of course this tends to cement the two-party system. > And it's not at all clear that there's any vastly superior virtue to > electing a President by straight popular vote (or some kind of > tournament resulting in a two-candidate finale) rather than via our > electoral system (which - only infrequently - results in situations > where *close* races go to the candidate with slightly fewer votes, but > by definition such an outcome does not *seriously* distort the process: > close to half the voters get their choice - and close to half do not - > either way; only in a race where a third candidate garners a *large* > portion of the votes might a tournament system produce a significantly > different result, and even then the choice between the two systems > remains somewhat a matter of taste). As long as everyone agrees on what > the rules are going in, then quite a few rather different approaches can > each be reasonably democratic. The main disadvantage is that many small parties don't see any point in running in the first place. > The problems in Florida were an entirely different matter, Agreed. I wanted to emphasise that DESPITE the Bush-bias in Florida, Al Gore STILL got more of the popular vote. > and a serious > threat to the integrity of our republic (especially since the final > check that should have corrected them failed utterly due to partisan > influence that theoretically should not have been present at all). Indeed. I don't see the point in voting machines of any type---electronic or not. In Europe, most elections are done on paper ballots where one crosses a circle next to the party's or candidate's name. FINAL results are available within a few hours of the election. As long as one doesn't have third-world conditions where people steal the ballot boxes etc, this allows for a paper trail which can be studied in as much detail as necessary to convince all doubters that the election was valid. > did not get elected. If, say, Milosovic had implemented such > > an electoral system in Yugoslavia, the rest of the world would have > > (rightly) said "Whom are you trying to fool?". > > I suggest not: our electoral system, while in some ways a bit > antiquated, is a perfectly reasonable approximation to democratic election. ASSUMING that only two serious candidates run in the first place. However, the system itself effectively prevents any political opinion except that of the two major parties from having a chance. (This is complicated by gerrymandering. Anyone who thinks that elections in the US are fair should look at district boundaries and how they got that way. There is always a problem with voting districts, but in cases where those who have been elected draw the boundaries, it is much worse. Some districts have a length to width ratio of 20 or so, some consist of several disjoint pieces etc.) > The Florida debacle and subsequent blatant abrogation of ultimate > responsibility by our Supreme Court, on the other hand, was pure banana > republic - and rightly merits even more derision than it received. Indeed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:19:26 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Phillip Helbig wrote: > > Bill Todd writes: > >>Without being at all expert in the matter, my impression is that pure >>democracies are rather thin on the ground. England certainly doesn't >>elect its Prime Minister by straight popular vote, for example (though >>it uses a notably different process than our electoral college): would >>you say that significantly detracts from England's 'credibility'? > > As I indicated, England also suffers the disadvantages of a two-party > system. Ahem, England doesn't have a Prime Minister, nor indeed a government. You probably mean the UK (as in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Please be careful on this point; it irks those of us who live in the UK, vote in the UK, but are not English (and there are several million of us). You guys should know better. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 10:10:27 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article , "R.A.Omond" writes: > You probably mean the UK (as in United Kingdom of Great Britain and > Northern Ireland). Please be careful on this point; it irks those > of us who live in the UK, vote in the UK, but are not English (and > there are several million of us). > > You guys should know better. Of course we do. However, considering the newsgroup, we confused the difference between England and the UK with the difference between VMS and OpenVMS. Sorry. :-) Of course, there are also the British Isles (which also includes the Republic of Ireland, which is not a member of NATO (though it is an EU member), Great Britain (as opposed to Brittany in France), i.e. England, Scotland and Wales (but not Northern Ireland---not sure if this technically includes the Shetland Islands, Isle of Wight, Isle of Man etc) and the Channel Islands, which have a rather bizarre status. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:27:01 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: July the 4th Message-ID: <000e01c7c152$e7c75d70$b7561850$@com> An important point here - we are a representative Republic, not a pure democracy. A republic operates with somewhat different principals. And it operates very well thank you. I will point out that within the physical confines of the U.S., we have represented almost every single culture and ethnicity on the planet, and in general, we all find ways to get along with each other. There are plenty of exceptions of course, but we have only had *one* civil war, and we have never had, nor as long as we remain a republic, *will we have*, a military coup. A lot of my European friends were amazed that there were no riots when Bush was elected the first time. I don't think anyone who has assimilated U.S> culture was, and most were kind of surprised that some Europeans *did*. There is a huge culture difference. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply > [mailto:helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:04 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: July the 4th > > In article , JF Mezei > writes: > > > Yes, there are a few educated individuals here and there who realised > > what was going on and were dead set against that administration. But > the > > USA electoral system concluded that the majority of americans > supported > > that administration and that is what the rest of the world sees. > > The majority of voters DID elect Bush the second time. The majority of > voters did NOT elect Bush the first time, but he had a majority in the > electoral system. One reason for the lack of credibility of the USA in > the world is that they claim to be a democratic society, but the person > who got the most popular votes (Al Gore, despite a) Nader getting an > appreciable chunk of his votes (see below) and b) all the problems in > Florida) did not get elected. If, say, Milosovic had implemented such > an electoral system in Yugoslavia, the rest of the world would have > (rightly) said "Whom are you trying to fool?". > > > Electoral systems can be very unfair/weird. In Canada, the now > > opposition party chose a new leader. Neither of the 2 top candidates > won > > the leadership, it was the 3rd one who did. As a result, the Liberals > > are now stuck with a boring, unelectable candidate who barely speaks > > english. So instead of immediatly topling the current minority > > government to force an election , the Liberals are letting the right > > wing Reform party continue to govern canada because they know they > would > > lose an election if held with the current leader. > > > > The French system for presidential elections makes more sense: 2 > rounds > > of voting. Only 2 survive the first round. This ensures that the > leader > > is one of the 2 most popular persons. > > This shows the difference in perspective. You consider the French > system better, I consider it worse. :-| > > The problem with the French system is the following. Assume there are > five candidates, say three left-of-centre candidates and two > right-of-centre candidate. Assume that the votes are 15/20/20/22/23. > That is, 55% want a left-of-centre candidate. However, the runoff will > be between the two right-of-centre candidates. > > The proper way to do this is not to have the runoff between the two top > candidates in the first round, but rather to remove the candidate who > did worst and have the runoff between the remaining candidates, > iterating until there are just two left. > > This does not imply that many elections. Actually, one needs just one. > Voters then rank candidates in order of preference. In the first > round, > everyone voted for their first-ranked candidate. In the second round, > those whose first-ranked candidate is no longer there voted for their > second-ranked candidate etc. > > > In the USA, the whole "primaries" process is still stuck in the horse > > carriage days except that now, > > Indeed. This might have made some sort of sense back when the country > was founded, but makes no sense today where communication is faster. > (And this doesn't need voting machines etc---modern electoral systems > can and do work with paper ballots.) > > > voters in some states get to know the > > results of the election held in others states and hence this skews > the > > votes. > > Indeed. > > > And in both the last democratic race and the liberal race in Canada, > the > > winner wasn't chosen on electability, he was chosen based on his > > political ingenuity to win the votes AT THE CONVENTION. > > Well, if the party elects the candidate, it's up to them how to do it. > A party which can't come up with a good candidate is probably not good > at other things either. > > And then there is the whole issueu of gerrymandering, which in some > form > or another almost always is an issue when there is the > one-representative-per-district approach. > > The proper way to do things is proportional representation. (By the > way, this does not necessarily imply that there are no representatives > who feel that they represent a particular area of the country. One can > have a system (such as in Germany) where each district elects a > representative (based on simple majority, which is not a problem here), > but at the same time casts a vote for proportional representation. The > number of seats in parliament is determined SOLELY by this second vote, > with each party deducting the number of seats held by directly elected > representatives. The best of both worlds, and works fine with paper > ballots. > > The two-party system, such as in the US, France (though at least they > have runoffs, though this does not always make sense as noted above) > and > the UK is a farce. One can have, say, 20--30 per cent of the > population > who regularly vote but whose party has NO seats in the parliament. > From > the point of view of proportional representation, a two-party system is > only slightly better than a one-party system. Remember that former > East > Germany called itself the German Democratic Republic. Did that make it > democratic? No. Nor does any other country calling itself democratic > make itself democratic unless deeds (seats in parliament at least > roughly correspond to the votes cast) follow words. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:58:28 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: RE: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <000e01c7c152$e7c75d70$b7561850$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > An important point here - we are a representative Republic, not a pure > democracy. Yes, a practical matter which no-one disputes. > A republic operates with somewhat different principals. And it > operates very well thank you. No-one disputes the fact that division of labour via elected officials is a good idea. The question is the process by which the officials are elected. > never had, nor as long as we remain a republic, *will we have*, a military > coup. By definition. > A lot of my European friends were amazed that there were no riots when Bush > was elected the first time. I don't think anyone who has assimilated U.S> > culture was, and most were kind of surprised that some Europeans *did*. I wasn't surprised. A riot (or, in general, a demonstration) serves to point out (again, by definition) something. I doubt the majority of US citizens understand the electoral system enough to understand why many Europeans consider it unjust. > There is a huge culture difference. Indeed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:27:56 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article , "R.A.Omond" > writes: > > > You probably mean the UK (as in United Kingdom of Great Britain and > > Northern Ireland). Please be careful on this point; it irks those > > of us who live in the UK, vote in the UK, but are not English (and > > there are several million of us). > > > > You guys should know better. > > Of course we do. However, considering the newsgroup, we confused the > difference between England and the UK with the difference between VMS > and OpenVMS. Sorry. :-) > Nope. You have that back to front. OpenVMS is the pretender, so that should read "we confused the difference between England and the UK with the difference between OpenVMS and VMS. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:09:55 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer wrote: > JF Mezei schrieb: > > OK, I need to have a reality check here. > > > > A PowerPC G3, 450mhz from a MAC versus a DS10L EV6 at 466mhz. Both are > > circa 1999. > > > > The MAC is MUCH cooler. In fact, it doesn't have a blower on its CPU, > > while the DS10L does, and the air out of the mac is fairly cool while > > the air out the DS10L is HOT. > > > > Does the Alpha provide much more bang for the heat it produces > > considering it is roughly the same Mhz as the PowerPC chip ? (aka: > > smarter execution, pipelining etc) ? > > > > Or is the Alpha chip roughly the same performance, but has much worse > > power consumption/heat generation ? > > Well, since you have both machines available you might benchmark > it yourself. > From my humble measurements with > PPC based IBM boxes (F50,43P) vs alphas (PWS,AS500) > I'd say they are about on par (by extrapolation, since > the IBMs max out at 375MHz). > I'd be cautious, however, when one of the combatants is > a notebook. I've seen G4 Mac notebooks running at 1.5 GHz > not being significantly faster than those ancient IBM parts @ 3xx MHz. The only benchmark I've really run was using Lame to convert a large AIFF file (approx 1 hour's play time) to an MP3. My 10 year old PWS 600au did it in approximately half an hour. My 5 year old G3 600 MHz iBook took 1 hour 40 minutes. PS. I've just converted 6 AIFF files to MP3 on both platforms. The Alpha took 8 minutes using ~98% of the CPU; the iBook 34 minutes, using 23% of the CPU. Not much in it regarding raw CPU from that measurement, but the elapsed times tell a different story. Another aspect is that I can throw a CPU intensive job at VMS without noticing any significant performance degradation when doing such tasks as editing, but on the Mac I _do_ notice. IOW, it's worth running stuff on the Alpha for both the decrease in elapsed times and maintaining good response times on the Mac. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 12:17:43 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Message-ID: P. Sture schrieb: > IOW, it's worth running stuff on the Alpha for both the decrease in > elapsed times and maintaining good response times on the Mac. That's more or less what I said, a Mac isn't a very good example for PPC performance. In particular the G4s I find rather disappointing when compared to their PPC cousins in other boxes. One might get the idea that Apple did it wrong deliberately, so they could better justify their intel switch. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:29:56 -0400 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <4690BCA4.32596.2C453881@squayle.insight.rr.com> I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 (Alpha). However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part number. Anyone have that handy? The part number for the latest 7.3-2 layered product distribution would be handy, too... Thanks! --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:59:08 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Stanley F. Quayle [mailto:squayle@insight.rr.com] > Sent: July 8, 2007 10:30 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 >=20 > I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 > (Alpha). > However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part > number. Anyone have that handy? >=20 > The part number for the latest 7.3-2 layered product distribution > would be handy, too... >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > --Stan Quayle > Quayle Consulting Inc. >=20 > ---------- > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA > stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" >=20 From my OpenVMS V7.3-2 CDrom: AQ-QSBZG-BS For larger media and doc packages, the SPD for a particular is always the best source: http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2501/SP2501PF.PDF (V7.3-2 SPD - see end for media numbers) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:22:39 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <46910F4F.F13DE515@spam.comcast.net> "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > > I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 (Alpha). > However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part > number. Anyone have that handy? > > The part number for the latest 7.3-2 layered product distribution > would be handy, too... *Heart-felt Sigh* Y'know, it's a sad commentary when a vendor can't even lookup its own part numbers... Isn't that why EDP came about in the first place? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:52:20 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <70FBE507-C0B3-4A6F-A056-049B18A62744@raulersons.com> The software must be running on a bunch of disparate PC servers... In truth, it isn't uncommon, but it is annoying. IBM, Unisys, etc. - all the same way. Still reprehensible, I admit. Must have been infected by the same class of bean counting idiot at all those companies. Probably Wharton? :) On Jul 8, 2007, at 11:22 AM, David J Dachtera wrote: > "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: >> >> I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 (Alpha). >> However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part >> number. Anyone have that handy? >> >> The part number for the latest 7.3-2 layered product distribution >> would be handy, too... > > *Heart-felt Sigh* > > Y'know, it's a sad commentary when a vendor can't even lookup its > own part > numbers... > > Isn't that why EDP came about in the first place? > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:20:36 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Printing pre-setup (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <000d01c7c152$01fe71c0$05fb5540$@com> Thank you! - Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 11:18 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Printing pre-setup (was: Is VMS losing the Financial > Sector, also?) > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > Hey, thank you John! Appreciate the instructions. I found the > > Ask-The-Wizard stuff, and had no trouble pointing it to a LPD queue > that is > > serving the network. (I missed the idea of the device control > library > > though... I'm assuming that "library" here means a directory with > some data > > modules in it... but I suppose it could be an objet module library > too. :) > > As Richard points out, you need a text library. See the HELP for the > LIBRARIAN > command. > > A simple example, assuming some .TXT files in my current directory: > > $ LIBR/CRE/TEXT MYLIB * > > ...will create MYLIB.TLB and insert into it all the text files in my > current > directory matching the wildcard filepsec "*.TXT;". > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:16:08 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: <000c01c7c151$6226a500$2673ef00$@com> Actually, I think the problem here is I sent a message out using Mac MAIL- which definitely went out in HTML format with all the MIME headers and so forth. The problems appear to be from where that message gets quoted. It was, by the way, formatted to standards compliance, at least on the e-mail list. I can't find the original "problem" message on a news server. Google of course, cleaned it up just fine. Almost any Usenet reader around should have been able to take the message and correctly display the text part of it. Certainly any of the Mozilla based readers (it looks like you are using Mozilla 4.77 under Windows XP, reporting as NT 5) should have. I tried reading this thread with a copy of tin last night under Linux and it came up perfectly legible from the Suddenlink news servers. Of course, it came in fine with outlook express too. Here's a header; I would highlight the relevant part if I could send formatting information along. :) The important part is the Content-Transfer-Encoding: header line. Certain gateway software *used* to have trouble with quoted printable stuff - maybe five years ago. But it should all be up to date now. Quoted printable, isn't a "Microsoft" thing by the way; it allows other character sets to be displayed and correctly transmitted across Usenet and E-mail gateways. This list does have some participants who speak something else besides English as their primary language. References below. -Paul From: "Main, Kerry" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:34:45 -0400 Organization: Info-VAX<==>comp.os.vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 93 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mime-Version: 1.0 Path: news.suddenlink.net!dartmaster!s02-b21.iad01!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!news hosting.com!204.127.204.221.MISMATCH!wns11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.71.34.3! newsfeed.cwix.com!mvb.saic.com!info-vax Xref: news.suddenlink.net comp.os.vms:206174 --- Quoted-printable encoding is used where data is mostly US-ASCII text. It allows for 8-bit characters to be represented as their hexadecimal values. For instance, a new line can be forced by using the following string: "=0D=0A". Line lengths are limited to 76 characters. Using an equal sign as the last character on the line as a "soft" line break accommodates longer lines. The 76-character limit does not include the CRLF sequence or the equal sign. Any character, except the CRLF sequence, can be represented by an equal sign followed by a two-digit hexadecimal representation. This is especially useful in getting mostly text messages to pass reliably through gateways such as EBCDIC where such characters as "{" and "}" have special meaning. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:59 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > "P. Sture" wrote: > > [snip] > > There's a pretty comprehensive article entitled "Configuring Mail > > Clients to Send Plain ASCII Text". It covers all manner of clients: > > > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html > > Is it new enough to include Safari? > > Seems we have some Safari users here. The results so far have been at > least as > unpredictable as LookOut! + Exchange. > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 2007 09:14:45 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: In article <000c01c7c151$6226a500$2673ef00$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > Quoted printable, isn't > a "Microsoft" thing by the way; it allows other character sets to be > displayed and correctly transmitted across Usenet and E-mail gateways. I have not noticed it on my newsreader, but in my experience Quoted Printable makes an email message quite difficult to decipher when received on VMSmail. Ideally I would get my ISP to reject such messages and prompt the originators to form their messages into lines of less than 80 characters. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 10:11:27 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: <000c01c7c172$41e13820$c5a3a860$@com> Which would instantly mean you would block out messages in other languages, since they often need to be quoted. Works fine for English, but we live in a connected world. Besides, it would be easier to update or upgrade the mail program I would think. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:15 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) > > In article <000c01c7c151$6226a500$2673ef00$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" > writes: > > > Quoted printable, isn't > > a "Microsoft" thing by the way; it allows other character sets to be > > displayed and correctly transmitted across Usenet and E-mail > gateways. > > I have not noticed it on my newsreader, but in my experience Quoted > Printable makes an email message quite difficult to decipher when > received on VMSmail. > > Ideally I would get my ISP to reject such messages and prompt the > originators to form their messages into lines of less than 80 > characters. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:16:07 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <000c01c7c151$6226a500$2673ef00$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > > > Quoted printable, isn't > > a "Microsoft" thing by the way; it allows other character sets to be > > displayed and correctly transmitted across Usenet and E-mail gateways. Yes, but the receiving end still has to decode it. I could also convert a text which otherwise wouuld not be transmitted correctly to PostScript (which is just 7-bit printable ASCII) and transfer that, but it would still have to be decoded to make sense to the reader. > I have not noticed it on my newsreader, but in my experience Quoted > Printable makes an email message quite difficult to decipher when > received on VMSmail. Yes. Especially when not just the 8-bit characters are encoded (one can get use to thinking of =FC as a strange font for ü) but all characters such as punctuation marks etc. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 2007 10:31:10 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: <7S0+DaFBkO4+@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <000c01c7c172$41e13820$c5a3a860$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > Which would instantly mean you would block out messages in other languages, > since they often need to be quoted. 1. Not in any message I have ever received. 2. Not in any fashion that I could read it if it did happen. > Works fine for English, but we live in a connected world. Just as a message that will not be delivered should be rejected in the SMTP dialog, so should any message that cannot be read by the recipient, so the originator will know to translate before sending. > Besides, it would be easier to update or upgrade the mail program I would > think. Since you think it is easy to "update" VMSmail, you can go ahead and get HP to do that. Contact me when you have that done and I will put you in contact with my ISP and you can try to convince them of the value of upgrading VMS to get the new version. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] >> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:15 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: RE: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) >> >> In article <000c01c7c151$6226a500$2673ef00$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" >> writes: >> >> > Quoted printable, isn't >> > a "Microsoft" thing by the way; it allows other character sets to be >> > displayed and correctly transmitted across Usenet and E-mail >> gateways. >> >> I have not noticed it on my newsreader, but in my experience Quoted >> Printable makes an email message quite difficult to decipher when >> received on VMSmail. >> >> Ideally I would get my ISP to reject such messages and prompt the >> originators to form their messages into lines of less than 80 >> characters. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:19:56 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: <46910EAC.DB79E6AD@spam.comcast.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > > Actually, I think the problem here is I sent a message out using Mac MAIL- > which definitely went out in HTML format with all the MIME headers and so > forth. The problems appear to be from where that message gets quoted. It > was, by the way, formatted to standards compliance, at least on the e-mail > list. I can't find the original "problem" message on a news server. Google > of course, cleaned it up just fine. > > Almost any Usenet reader around should have been able to take the message > and correctly display the text part of it. Certainly any of the Mozilla > based readers (it looks like you are using Mozilla 4.77 under Windows XP, > reporting as NT 5) should have. V4.77 is rather old. The Help -> About shows (C) thru 2001. About all it's good for these days is Usenet, but it's still faster than Netscape V7 and later or newer Mozilla on this circa. 1GHz processor. Haven't tried Firefox or similar yet - I hate spending my evenings cleaning up from botched installs and exploded applications, so I prefer to avoid such risks. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:43:04 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article <000901c7c0cc$d88ab9a0$89a02ce0$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] > > > > The striping product is an add on for VMS. I do not have experience > > with it. > > > > Getting a backplane RAID controller may be lower cost, and it may also > > provide a lot faster access because of the additional battery backed up > > cache. > > > > Ah HAH! NOW this makes sense. I found references to it all over creation, > but did not pick up it was a separate product. Yep, a RAID controller is a > much better solution, but this is primarily a learning experience for me, > and also, I am working on configurations for small-scale servers and such. > Trying to pick up a couple years worth of education in a few months too, > since I have a time limit looming at me. > While there was/is a striping product for VMS, I've used hardware controllers (HSJ, HSZ or HSG) to do the same in the past. These controllers could be used in redundant pairs. We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well for us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching for 90+ GB of backup tapes. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:34:14 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well for > us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set > (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both > shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching > for 90+ GB of backup tapes. So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. What about striping shadow sets? Instead of |1| |1| |2| |2| |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| |4| |4| |5| |5| use |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| ? In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second case, it affects 2. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:44:19 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <000601c7c16e$77d9e340$678da9c0$@com> Just curious- with hardware raid why did you really even consider shadowing? Raid-5 would give you the same benefits and data protection as well. If in a hot-swap array, it also means zero downtime for your system. In a modern day shop, which enterprise class storage systems, I can not see any need at all for shadowing. :) Of course, it makes sense on a low end system though, and is a very cool capability built into the system. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why RAID-0 was considered an add on product and RAID-1 was a base product though. :) -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: P. Sture [mailto:paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:43 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > In article <000901c7c0cc$d88ab9a0$89a02ce0$@com>, > "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] > > > > > > The striping product is an add on for VMS. I do not have > experience > > > with it. > > > > > > Getting a backplane RAID controller may be lower cost, and it may > also > > > provide a lot faster access because of the additional battery > backed up > > > cache. > > > > > > > Ah HAH! NOW this makes sense. I found references to it all over > creation, > > but did not pick up it was a separate product. Yep, a RAID > controller is a > > much better solution, but this is primarily a learning experience for > me, > > and also, I am working on configurations for small-scale servers and > such. > > Trying to pick up a couple years worth of education in a few months > too, > > since I have a time limit looming at me. > > > > While there was/is a striping product for VMS, I've used hardware > controllers (HSJ, HSZ or HSG) to do the same in the past. These > controllers could be used in redundant pairs. > > We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well > for > us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set > (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both > shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching > for 90+ GB of backup tapes. > > -- > Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:18:04 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article <000601c7c16e$77d9e340$678da9c0$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > Just curious- with hardware raid why did you really even consider shadowing? > Raid-5 would give you the same benefits and data protection as well. If in a > hot-swap array, it also means zero downtime for your system. > > In a modern day shop, which enterprise class storage systems, I can not see > any need at all for shadowing. :) Can you split up a RAID-5 set or whatever across 3 locations separated by several kilometers? > Of course, it makes sense on a low end system though, and is a very cool > capability built into the system. For the life of me, I cannot figure out > why RAID-0 was considered an add on product and RAID-1 was a base product > though. :) Really? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:41:39 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] > Sent: July 8, 2007 10:44 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) >=20 > Just curious- with hardware raid why did you really even consider > shadowing? > Raid-5 would give you the same benefits and data protection as > well. If in a > hot-swap array, it also means zero downtime for your system. >=20 > In a modern day shop, which enterprise class storage systems, I can > not see > any need at all for shadowing. :) >=20 > Of course, it makes sense on a low end system though, and is a very > cool > capability built into the system. For the life of me, I cannot > figure out > why RAID-0 was considered an add on product and RAID-1 was a base > product > though. :) >=20 > -Paul > =20 [Snip ..] Paul, High end OpenVMS systems typically use a combination of HW and host based techniques like shadowing to ensure max Application uptime. HW controller techniques is often used to ensure availability after a disk drive fails or to increase throughput at the disk level. Host based shadowing (HBVS) is used to ensure availability after a HW RAID controller or controller pair fails or to increase throughput across HW controllers. Host based shadowing is also used to ensure availability after a site fails in an active-active multi-site cluster or to increase throughput across sites i.e. load balancing the same workloads across sites.=20 As an example: $1$App1 might be how a shadowed disk appears to an application via a logical. This might translate at lower levels to: - $1$DSA140 which is a host based volume shadowing device with physical members $1$DUA141 and $1$DUA142 which then might translate at a lower level to: - $1$DUA141 is a HW RAID RAID5 or RAID0+1 HW device on site1 that consists of multiple disks in the local HW controller.=20 - $1$DUA142 is a HW RAID RAID5 or RAID0+1 HW device on site2 that consists of multiple disks in the local HW controller. Hence, a failure of a disk drive on site1 or site2 gets replaced and then rebuilt at the local site with no impact on the local systems or multi-site link. Another strategy sometimes used by very HA environments in single site environments is to use host based shadowing across multiple controller pairs at the local level.=20 As an example, in one large chip company I was involved with a number of years ago, they had a read intensive OpenVMS clustered application with uptime measured at approx $750K per hour. We spent approx 4 months planning for a single hour of downtime, but in the end, it was successful and we put in place a shadowed volume strategy that had 3 physical shadow members. Each member was from a different disk controller pair, so they could lose an entire disk controller pair (ie. lose both RAID controllers at the "SAN" level) and while performance might be slowed down a bit, the app would continue. This got them around the potential of a FW upgrade taking out both local "SAN" controllers or a FS rep removing the wrong failed controller board (physically each controller board is about an inch apart from each other) So, HW raid is good for some things, but host based also address the limitations of a HW only approach.=20 This is critical for high end environments. Btw, the normal overhead associated with host based shadowing is very small on systems of Alpha vintage or later. In addition, host based shadowing does present a bit more overhead with write activity as the write needs to be complete on all members before it is considered complete, so it depends on the application environment. In addition, some Cust's will use HBVS across disk controller pairs, but then implement a comb of disk controller write through caching (DB journal files) and write back caching strategies (DB data) to maximize overall throughput as well as ensure no impact on data integrity. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 18:50:49 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article , "P. > Sture" writes: > > > We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well for > > us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set > > (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both > > shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching > > for 90+ GB of backup tapes. > > So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. > > What about striping shadow sets? > > Instead of > > |1| |1| > |2| |2| > |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| > |4| |4| > |5| |5| > > use > > |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| > |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| > |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| > |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| > |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| > > ? > > In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second > case, it affects 2. Er, can you do that? I haven't used VMS striping, so don't know whether shadowing or striping would be at the lower level. In our case, we already had the controllers, so it made sense to use their striping capabilities. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:12:59 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:50:49 -0700, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > reply) wrote: > >> In article , "P. >> Sture" writes: >> >> > We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well >> for >> > us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe >> set >> > (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both >> > shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching >> > for 90+ GB of backup tapes. >> >> So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. >> >> What about striping shadow sets? >> >> Instead of >> >> |1| |1| >> |2| |2| >> |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| >> |4| |4| >> |5| |5| >> >> use >> >> |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| >> |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| >> |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| >> |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| >> |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| >> >> ? >> >> In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second >> case, it affects 2. > > Er, can you do that? I haven't used VMS striping, so don't know whether > shadowing or striping would be at the lower level. HSG80-TOP>sho mirror Name Storageset Uses Used by ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MIRR_0 mirrorset DISK50000 DVGRPSM0 DISK60200 MIRR_1 mirrorset DISK30300 DVGRPSM0 DISK40000 HSG80-TOP>sho stripe Name Storageset Uses Used by ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DVGRPSM0 stripeset MIRR_0 D11 MIRR_1 > > In our case, we already had the controllers, so it made sense to use > their striping capabilities. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 07:13:21 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:09:14 -0700, Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Jul 7, 7:44 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> What is the best (simplest) way to send a mail message at a specific >> time >> in the future? VMSMail on AXP 7.3-1 thru 8.3 >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > > Tom, > > I concur with Arne and Richard. Indeed, it is the very solution that I > use when I want a mailing to occur at a specific time. That then begs a second question. The submission is in the batch queue of a specific node in the cluster. If the node happens to go down, then the message won't be sent. And to queue it on each node results in multiple messages to recipient. So, is there a failsafe way to queue the message? > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:12:53 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > That then begs a second question. The submission is in the batch queue of > a specific node in the cluster. If the node happens to go down, then the > message won't be sent. And to queue it on each node results in multiple > messages to recipient. So, is there a failsafe way to queue the message? Generic queue? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:16:16 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: <4690ffb3$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Tom Linden wrote: > That then begs a second question. The submission is in the batch queue of > a specific node in the cluster. If the node happens to go down, then the > message won't be sent. And to queue it on each node results in multiple > messages to recipient. So, is there a failsafe way to queue the message? I guess you you could have the queue database on shared storage and have the batch job execute on any cluster member. Those emails are important ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:03:13 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:16:16 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> That then begs a second question. The submission is in the batch queue >> of >> a specific node in the cluster. If the node happens to go down, then >> the >> message won't be sent. And to queue it on each node results in multiple >> messages to recipient. So, is there a failsafe way to queue the >> message? > > I guess you you could have the queue database on shared storage > and have the batch job execute on any cluster member. Yes, but how do you get it to execute on any and only one arbitrary cluster member? > > Those emails are important ? Very:-) I have to sign up for a golf tournament on a first arrival basis, which would be an instant after midnight > > Arne -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:13:15 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: <46910D1B.9C7DEB8B@spam.comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > > On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:09:14 -0700, Bob Gezelter > wrote: > > > On Jul 7, 7:44 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > >> What is the best (simplest) way to send a mail message at a specific > >> time > >> in the future? VMSMail on AXP 7.3-1 thru 8.3 > >> > >> -- > >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > > > > Tom, > > > > I concur with Arne and Richard. Indeed, it is the very solution that I > > use when I want a mailing to occur at a specific time. > > That then begs a second question. The submission is in the batch queue of > a specific node in the cluster. If the node happens to go down, then the > message won't be sent. And to queue it on each node results in multiple > messages to recipient. So, is there a failsafe way to queue the message? The typical approach is to have such jobs submitted to a generic queue with eligible generic target (execution) queues on each node of the cluster. Thus, as long as one node is up and the related queue is running, the send should succeed. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 12:53:17 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: <46911670$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Tom Linden wrote: > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:16:16 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> I guess you you could have the queue database on shared storage >> and have the batch job execute on any cluster member. > Yes, but how do you get it to execute on any and only one arbitrary cluster > member? It is 15 years since I have done that type of stuff, but as I recall it then you make an execution queue ON each cluster number and a generic queue that distributes jobs on those queues. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:32:58 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > > > > >In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > >wrote: > > > >> I've installed V8.3 on a system and configured TCPIP. However, when I > >> go to use ssh, I get a stack dump. > >> > >> %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual > >> address=000000000000 > >> 0000, PC=00000000000EA240, PS=0000001B > >> > >> Improperly handled condition, image exit forced. > >> Signal arguments: Number = 0000000000000005 > >> Name = 000000000000000C > >> 0000000000000000 > >> 0000000000000000 > >> 00000000000EA240 > >> 000000000000001B > >> > >> Register dump: > >> R0 = 0000000000000000 R1 = 0000000000000014 R2 = 0000000000015E80 > >> R3 = 0000000000000000 R4 = 0000000000510B18 R5 = 000000000005AA40 > >> R6 = 0000000000000001 R7 = 000000000005AA40 R8 = 0000000000000001 > >> R9 = 0000000000000000 R10 = 0000000000000001 R11 = 0000000000000000 > >> R12 = 0000000000000001 R13 = 00000000004E8708 R14 = 00000000005199B8 > >> R15 = 0000000000519B60 R16 = 0000000000000000 R17 = 00000000000615E0 > >> R18 = 0000000000060C70 R19 = 0000000000000CF4 R20 = 0000000000015C78 > >> R21 = 0000000000000000 R22 = 0000000000519CA2 R23 = 0000000000000019 > >> R24 = 0000000000021999 R25 = 0000000000000001 R26 = 00000000000FD918 > >> R27 = 0000000000013EA0 R28 = 0000000000000000 R29 = 000000007AE26D50 > >> SP = 000000007AE26D40 PC = 00000000000EA240 PS = 000000000000001B > >> > >> Any suggestions? > > > >A long shot here, as the PC looks nothing like the example, but an > >access violation is documented in TCPIP056.RELEASE_NOTES. There are some > >other gotchas there too. > > I owe you a mega-beer! Super! > I agree that the documented stack dump doesn't look > at all like the stack dump I was seeing; however, there was a problem with > the SYSTEM identifier for the SYSTEM account. I assumed, when I saw just a > [1,4] showing in directory listings, that they had deleted the SYSTEM ident- > ifier. > > $ MCR AUTHORIZE > UAF> MODIFY/IDENTIFIER SYSTEM/VALUE=UIC=[1,4] > > fixed the problem. > > I now need to discuss this with the client to find out why another account > had the SYSTEM identifier assigned its UIC. Ugh! Good luck there, as it could have happened ages ago. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 12:33:57 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > > >In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >> I owe you a mega-beer! I agree that the documented stack dump doesn't look >> at all like the stack dump I was seeing; however, there was a problem with >> the SYSTEM identifier for the SYSTEM account. I assumed, when I saw just a >> [1,4] showing in directory listings, that they had deleted the SYSTEM ident- >> ifier. >> >> $ MCR AUTHORIZE >> UAF> MODIFY/IDENTIFIER SYSTEM/VALUE=UIC=[1,4] >> >> fixed the problem. >> >> I now need to discuss this with the client to find out why another account >> had the SYSTEM identifier assigned its UIC. > >On a somewhat related note, in code I endeavor to use only the binary >values of facility-specific identifiers, reducing the chance for system >manager mistakes to undermine that particular step. I just be happier if they'd check the identifier and an error message would be returned instead of an ACCVIO stack dump. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:10:00 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: In article , ChrisSharman wrote: > Paul Sture asked: > > Why libxslt? > > Well, I chose libxml because Hoff says it works, I've had problems in > the past with expat, and Hoff reports problems with the HP offering. > I'm on VMS 7.3-1, so the HP offering would be unsupported anyway, and a > success on 8.3 with expat doesn't prove it will work for me on 7.3-1. Agreed. libxml2 is also used by OS X (from 10.3 onwards). > Why xslt? No reason, except that it avoids me tinkering with legacy > code, and because there are too many choices - the job becomes much > easier once I narrow them down - unless of course I choose wrong! Do you > think xslt is a bad choice? > Until you mentioned xslt, I was somewhere in the "which way to leap?" phase too. Now I've studied it a bit, xslt looks very interesting. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:54:15 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <000b01c7c16f$dae638c0$90b2aa40$@com> Who boy - it does not matter what Europeans consider about the U.S. system. Any more than it matters what U.S. citizens consider about the less-than-sane E.U. It's pretty much a free world, and people can choose to live where they like. By the way, speaking of just - there is nowhere in the world, save perhaps Canada, where people have more recourse to 'justice' than in the U.S. The difference of course, being that most people here, and in Canada, are wise enough not to want or tolerate justice not tempered with mercy. Pity those who wish that on themselves. Like being condemned to seeing the world only through warped Windows. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply > [mailto:helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:58 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: July the 4th > > In article <000e01c7c152$e7c75d70$b7561850$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" > writes: > > > An important point here - we are a representative Republic, not a > pure > > democracy. > > Yes, a practical matter which no-one disputes. > > > A republic operates with somewhat different principals. And it > > operates very well thank you. > > No-one disputes the fact that division of labour via elected officials > is a good idea. The question is the process by which the officials are > elected. > > > never had, nor as long as we remain a republic, *will we have*, a > military > > coup. > > By definition. > > > A lot of my European friends were amazed that there were no riots > when Bush > > was elected the first time. I don't think anyone who has assimilated > U.S> > > culture was, and most were kind of surprised that some Europeans > *did*. > > I wasn't surprised. A riot (or, in general, a demonstration) serves to > point out (again, by definition) something. I doubt the majority of > US citizens understand the electoral system enough to understand why > many Europeans consider it unjust. > > > There is a huge culture difference. > > Indeed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:39:15 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <46912143$0$25492$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 8-7-2007 16:54 Paul Raulerson wrote... > Who boy - it does not matter what Europeans consider about the U.S. system. > Any more than it matters what U.S. citizens consider about the > less-than-sane E.U. It's pretty much a free world, and people can choose to > live where they like. Pretty much. I cannot choose to live in the USA. I cannot even travel there without a visa and without all my personal details being stored in a database in the USA. Does your freedom of information act extend to data of non-US citizens in a US database? I thought not. So, yours is not a free country. All people are equal in the "1984" definition. /Wilm ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.370 ************************