INFO-VAX Sat, 29 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 532 Contents: RE: Guidance with OpenVMS IA64 8.3 with Java 1.5 Problems Re: Time to PAK it in? Re: wierd backup behavior Re: wierd backup behavior ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:20:01 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Guidance with OpenVMS IA64 8.3 with Java 1.5 Problems Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: mjjerabek [mailto:mjjerabek@gmail.com] > Sent: September 27, 2007 4:56 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Guidance with OpenVMS IA64 8.3 with Java 1.5 Problems > > I have been given the task of determining whether I should port/ > rewrite a rather large HMI program from x-windows and 'C' to java. > > I went through an install of java 1.5 on an rx2620 duo core with 3gb > ram, a radeon video card, mouse, keyboard, and OpenVMS 8.3. I followed > the patching and tuning recommendation from the java release notes and > from the java$check_environment.com DCL file. I then started running > the jdk demo applications to get an idea of java performance versus > the same applications running on an 2.8ghz P4 XP PC with 256mb of ram. > > The performance of these java apps on the OpenVMS ia64 system was > extremely poor as compared to a much slower PC running XP. I followed > these tests up with a re-tune of the VMS authorize and sysgen > parameters, taking these parameters from their recommended values to > ridiculously large values (1gb wsquo, wsmax 1gb, everything big). The > performance of these apps got better, but had lots of rough spots. > > For example, the java2d app has a tabbed dialog where each tab > displayed different classes of graphics operations. When the app ran, > the graphics operations ran OK, but when I tried to select a different > dialog tab, it took 4 minutes 30 seconds (clock time) to switch dialog > tabs and start the display of the new graphics operations. Once the > tab was fully rendered, the new graphics operations ran at a > reasonable speed. > > I tried to get help from HP by sending en email to java-bugs@hp.com > and exchanged some email with an HP engineer. The engineer blamed the > applications, and not java. I pointed out that these applications came > with the JDK, but that made no difference. > > I also tried to use the java plugin with the CSWB/Mozilla. I tried to > display and operator a web page with embedded java. In my case, it was > an hp procurve managed switch management interface web page. These > simple html/java pages hung after a few java apps were loaded and run. > The HP engineer point to the procurve web page which was generated in > 2000 and specified that only IE5 and the MSVM could be used to display > the procure pages (lame excuse from HP). > > What I am looking for (I guess) is guidance from experienced people on > how to get performance out of java under OpenVMS Ia64 and Alpha > systems. I need access to better information than what HP chooses to > provide. > > I could use the following: > > 1) VMS tuning advice for java. What are typical authorize and sysgen > values for java usage. > > 2) More example applications to test with. My application will be a > rather large app and the demo apps that come with the JDK are not. > > 3) Suggest some URL's, books, etc that will guide me. > > Also, anyone who is willing to describe their experience in using java > with OpenVMS and have a conversation with me on or off-line, > please ... > > All help will be appreciated and acknowledged. > > Mjjerabek Just curious, but can you expand on why your company wants to re-write some= thing already Working to Java? Is it possible to install the sample programs with any performance monitori= ng tools to determine where the issues are? That is something you would likely want = to do in porting anything to any platform. Btw, I assume that you have the latest VMS V8.3 maint patches installed? ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/i64/V8.3/I64_V83I_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Also, check the typical OpenVMS OS perf tuning stuff e.g. no disk frag, hig= hwater marking off, and you might also look at a basic difference between VMS and = Windows/UNIX ie. write back (speed - Unix-Windows)) vs write thru (data safety - OpenVMS= ). If you would like to setup OpenVMS for same behaviour (write-back), there is a dyn= amic system parameter that will allow you to do this (I forget the actual parameter) There is also a cookbook for OpenVMS Java that also had a number of suggest= ions. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:01:34 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Time to PAK it in? Message-ID: In article , John Santos writes: > > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <3pgLi.8087$Im1.3525@trnddc01>, John Santos writes: >> >>> >>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> >>>>In article , John Reagan writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>John Egolf sent me a PAK! >>>>>> >>>>>>I am grateful for the PAK but I would like to have had an explaination >>>>>>as to why there was no PAK in what I'd downloaded. However, since you >>>>>>have posted here that it was a mistake/oversight, I'm content. >>>>>> >>>>>>Back to work... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Not to speak for John (he sits nearby) but the systems for PAK >>>>>generation were upgraded (newer HW, etc.) a few months back. He also >>>>>cleaned up the command procedures, etc. to get rid of lots of cruft that >>>>>had built up over the years. I know because he had me look at some of it. >>>> >>>> >>>>The PAK John sent me is FOE which does not contain clustering. It got the >>>>Itanium up and running but I can't access any of the software that I build >>>>which is on drives on another machine (Alpha) without clustering. Prior >>>>PAKs were MCOE. I hope this is being corrected as well. >>>> >>> >>>Holy Cow! I just realized all the DSPP licenses on my Itanium (from the porting >> >> >> http://www.tmesis.com/holycow.html >> >> > >Must be one a them there Swiss cows! LOL > >> >> >>>workshop) expire on Monday! >>> >>>Better get new ones right away. Need clustering, though! >> >> >> It's as if Monday's aren't bad enough! :) >> >> > >Just downloaded the Alpha and I64 PAKs... My MCOE on Itanium >still expires on Oct 1, but there is now a VAXCLUSTER PAK that >expires 30-Nov-2008. I hope that suffices! There is also a >DVNETEXT PAK, but no TCPIP/UCX nor DECWindows nor VOLSHAD nor >.... (What else will go away when MCOE lapses???) From: http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-9925ENW.pdf FOE: (Foundation Operating Environment) OpenVMS operating system OpenVMS unlimited user licensing Common Data Security Architecture (CDSA) Distributed Computing Environment (DCE) Remote Procedure Call (RPC) runtime DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS end system DECnet IV DECprint Supervisor (DCPS) DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS Distributed NetBeans, including plugins for C/C++, Fortran, EDT keypad, and CMS Enterprise Directory JavaTM Platform, Standard Edition, Development Kit (JDK) Kerberos NetBeans IDE, including plugins for C/C++, Fortran, EDT keypad, and CMS Performance data collector Secure Web Server (SWS) (based on Apache server), including Tomcat, mod_PHP, mod_Perl, and Perl Secure Web Browser (SWB) (based on Mozilla) Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP) Toolkit (based on Apache Axis) Secure Socket Layer (SSL) (based on OpenSSL) TCP/IP services for OpenVMS Universal Description, Discovery, and Integration (UDDI) Client Toolkit (based on UDDI4J) (Web) Management agents (for operation with HP Systems Insight Manager) Web-Based Enterprise Management (WBEM) XML Technology (based on Apache Xerces and Xalan) Web Services Integration Toolkit (WSIT) EOE: (Enterprise Operating Environment) RMS journaling Volume Shadowing DECram OpenVMS Management Station Availability Manager (AM) OpenView Performance Agent (OVPA) MCOE: (Mission Critical Operating Environment) OpenVMS Clusters Reliable Transaction Router (RTR) Backend I can do without these: RMS journaling, DECram, OpenVMS Management Station, Availability Manager, OpenView Performance Agent; but I absolutely rely on Volume Shadowing and OpenVMS Clustering to build software. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:22:44 -0400 From: Brad Hamilton Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <46FE1964.7D28CB@comcast.net> IanMiller wrote: > > On Sep 28, 1:38 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > >[snip] > > SLS is your friend. > > > > Damned shame HP isn't porting it to ia64. > > > > SLS is prehistoric. If you like it then migrate to TAPESYS (http:// > www.softwarepartners.com/) or use ABS (from HP) or consider one of the > other products The only reason that SLS is "prehistoric" is because some marketing-type decided it shouldn't be ported to the Itanic. Since SLS and Tapesys share so much software "DNA", that would be the logical place to go (assumimg that Software Partners is porting it to Itanic). And assuming that Tapesys is porting/ported, that begs the question, "Why didn't HP port the superior product to Itanic, rather than ABS?" :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:10:45 -0500 From: Wayne Sewell Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior Message-ID: <00A6E609.769889A8.9@tachysoft.com> >From: Brad Hamilton >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Re: wierd backup behavior >Message-ID: <46FE1964.7D28CB@comcast.net> >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:22:44 -0400 > >The only reason that SLS is "prehistoric" is because some marketing-type >decided it shouldn't be ported to the Itanic. Since SLS and Tapesys >share so much software "DNA", Yes and no. At one time, they had identical DNA (back in the 1980s). They have diverged since then, resulting in much less common DNA. tapesys in particular changed *drastically* with version 6.0. Major components were completely rewritten, such as the history system and the main database processing. There were huge changes to sysbak and vmsbu as well. But *functionally* they are still very similar, so SLS customers have no difficulty making the transition. All they have to do is install and run the provided database conversions. >that would be the logical place to go >(assumimg that Software Partners is porting it to Itanic). Version V6.2.0, which introduced itan support, was released on 15-SEP-2005. 6.2.2 is the current version. >And assuming >that Tapesys is porting/ported, that begs the question, "Why didn't HP >port the superior product to Itanic, rather than ABS?" :-) Tapesys 5.x, which the original SLS was based on, had a shitload of kernel mode hacks. Many of these were required at the time, for basic functionality. For instance, a merged image activation so that two main images (vmsbu and backup or rmu) could reside in the same process at the same time. Basically, vmsbu called vms backup as a subroutine. This required walking through image activation data structures, which changed drastically for itan. However, I have been on a mission for over a decade to get rid of these kernel hacks. Kernel mode processing is challenging and fun, but it is *fragile*. You are at the mercy of every vms version change, as you are accessing things not guaranteed to remain constant. On a steady basis over the years, I eliminated these hacks and replaced them with supported user-mode techniques. A good example is switching to the backup API, which eliminated the need for the merged image activation above. Backup is *supposed* to be called as a subroutine now. Therefore the port to itan wasn't that bad. I had to rework some things, but I had already eliminated the code that would have given me the most grief years earlier. I assume that much of this difficult-to-port code remains in SLS, making the port not worth the effort. I am thankful for this, since we are getting many of those customers. :-) Wayne =============================================================================== Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting (281)812-0738 wayne@tachysoft.com http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html =============================================================================== Curly:"Hey, I'm no mule." Moe:"No, your ears are too short!" ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.532 ************************