INFO-VAX Mon, 21 Jan 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 41 Contents: Re: Alpha 2100 soon to be available in Kansas City area. Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs /NOLOGGED Re: F$UNIQUE library function Re: F$UNIQUE library function Re: How do I map an HP VMS keyboard within Apple X11 on Leopard? Re: Mike Magee to leave the INQUIRER Need VAX-11/780 diagnostics Re: RSH service problem Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: This NG seems unusually quiet... Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies RE: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:42:30 -0800 (PST) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: Alpha 2100 soon to be available in Kansas City area. Message-ID: On Jan 20, 5:15 am, Michael Austin wrote: > I am at long last retiring my Alpha 2100/275 and replacing it with a > DS10L. I have a second Alpha 2100/200 that is missing the I/O card - I > have it, but it is dead :( > > It has 7x4Gb drives - 6xRAID5 + spare. Has 7.3-2, TCPIP 5.3 and Apache > 1.3 +php+Rdb+Oracle OCI client+Mysql 5.something... > > I am keeping the PCI SCSI card and the external TZ88 :) (already > installed in the DS10L) - And of course I will be erasing personal data > (del/erase). I will throw in whatever media I can find + the ECU and > RAID array configuration utility. > > Hopefully I will have it cleaned and my new server up and running in a > week or so... > > These things just run forever - it has been running 24x7x365 since it > was purchased by a company in Charlotte circa 1994/1995. I bought it > from them in '99 and has been running ever since - with the exception of > the periodic power outage... but no more than an hour or so... and the 4 > days it spent in a truck when I moved to KC in 2002. > > Best offer... (which could be as little as you coming to pick it up :) ) > > Michael Austin. email address is real. Michael, the 2100's do indeed run forever. We ran a two-node SCSI cluster, both 2100's: a 4/200 and a 4/190 IIRC. One of them had a power supply faillure but the system kept running. They were fast, could compete with the Alpha Server 1000 4/xxx models even when xxx was a lot higher than 200 MHz. They're built to old fashioned high standards, unfortunately combined with old fashioned weight, and more importantly very high power bills... Hans ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 2008 18:55:30 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <5vhjp1F1m629bU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> From: Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: January 20, 2008 11:31 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? >> >> In article >> > t>, >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply >> >> [mailto:helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de] >> >> Sent: January 18, 2008 2:45 PM >> >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >> Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? >> >> >> >> In article <4786D5CC.94F055F1@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera >> >> writes: >> >> >> >> > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > In article <4781869B.FA5DD8F1@spam.comcast.net>, David J >> Dachtera >> >> > > writes: >> >> > > >> >> > > > There is a Free VMS project around. Haven't heard much about >> it >> >> lately, >> >> > > > though. Google this group for the Free VMS project. >> >> > > >> >> > > It's been around for years and what they have is very >> rudimentary. >> >> > >> >> > Remember the early days of Linux? >> >> >> >> What was the time span between Linus's first attempts and the first >> >> ready-to-use "commercial" Linux? >> > >> > Imho, there are so many monthly security patches, I would say it is >> > still in bake mode. Course, Windows is in the same boat, so I guess >> > it depends on what you mean by ready-to-use. >> >> You know Kerry, if your just going to trot out the same tired old >> mantra maybe you should just hit the delete key and let people who >> have useful information to provide answer. >> > > Hard to argue with hard facts that are backed with real pointers. > > Now, you can say Windows/Linux have better marketing and other things, but > that does not take away from the reality of their numerous security issues > and patches released each and every month. And FreeVMS is nothing but a Linux kernel, so it obviously suffers from the same problems as "normal" Linux. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 2008 13:24:35 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <2T+V94WNIPsI@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5vhbgmF1mt5voU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >> In article >> , >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >>> Certainly MUCH less than the time >>> > between the beginning of Free VMS and now. And, of course, Unix is >>> > much >>> > easier to do than VMS. >>> >>> Now these's a statement guaranteed to kick off another OS religion war. >> >> Well, Linux has done unix and no-one has done VMS. I rest my case. > > Which could mean that Unix is easier. Or it could just mean that there is > not enough interest in VMS for anyone to waste their time. Or that VMS people are fussier about exact behavior matching. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:08:46 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <4793B85E.6040901@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > >>In article >>, >>"Main, Kerry" writes: >> >> >>>Certainly MUCH less than the time >>> >>>>between the beginning of Free VMS and now. And, of course, Unix is >>>>much >>>>easier to do than VMS. >>> >>>Now these's a statement guaranteed to kick off another OS religion war. >> >>Well, Linux has done unix and no-one has done VMS. I rest my case. > > > Which could mean that Unix is easier. Or it could just mean that there is > not enough interest in VMS for anyone to waste their time. > > bill > > It could be both! There is certainly enought Unix and Unix-like source available to answer "How did they do . . . .?" and "Exactly what does . . . . do?" And the licensing issues with the code are no where near as difficult. The the VMS source was/is available but it wasn't/isn't cheap and the licensing issues are a real obstacle! I'm not sure that the *complete* and *buildable* source was ever released. PCVMS showed that a DCL clone and some sort of API clone could be done around a Unix-like kernel. Getting from that point to the point where you can duplicate the look, feel, API, performance, reliability and security is one hell of a mountain to have to climb! I think I'll stick with my poor, tired, old VMS/Alpha V7.2-1 and hope that my Alphas outlive me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:23:39 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <4793d92a$0$4353$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Main, Kerry wrote: > Now, you can say Windows/Linux have better marketing and other things, but > that does not take away from the reality of their numerous security issues > and patches released each and every month. Apple just issued an update for Quicktime. Some vulnerabilitry with its ability to fetch codecs when one is missing. Now tell me, if VMS had software that was anywhere near as modern as the abilityto play a whole gamut of video/audio formats like all the other OS have, don't you think that it too would see some patches issued now and then to correct problems ? VMS are to operating systems what vinyl records are to MP3 players. And it is all becayuse the owners of VMS decided to make it so, not because VMS didn't have the ability to keep up with the Jones'. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:27:45 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <4793d8ed$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > Have no idea what that means. As I recall, most Linux types get upset if you > say Linux is related to UNIX. http://kernel.org/ says: #Linux is a clone of the operating system Unix, written from scratch by #Linus Torvalds with assistance from a loosely-knit team of hackers #across the Net. It aims towards POSIX and Single UNIX Specification #compliance. # #It has all the features you would expect in a modern fully-fledged Unix, #including true multitasking, virtual memory, shared libraries, demand #loading, shared copy-on-write executables, proper memory management, and #multistack networking including IPv4 and IPv6. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:42:05 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: January 20, 2008 6:24 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > Now, you can say Windows/Linux have better marketing and other > things, but > > that does not take away from the reality of their numerous security > issues > > and patches released each and every month. > > Apple just issued an update for Quicktime. Some vulnerabilitry with its > ability to fetch codecs when one is missing. > > Now tell me, if VMS had software that was anywhere near as modern as > the > abilityto play a whole gamut of video/audio formats like all the other > OS have, don't you think that it too would see some patches issued now > and then to correct problems ? > > VMS are to operating systems what vinyl records are to MP3 players. And > it is all becayuse the owners of VMS decided to make it so, not because > VMS didn't have the ability to keep up with the Jones'. You are talking about desktop stuff. That's a different world than the server world. The desktop world is 95% Windows, with the remaining split between Linux and MAC. So comparing OpenVMS to this is apples to oranges. Could some areas where OpenVMS is used in a workstation environment be improved? Absolutely. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:26:37 -0800 (PST) From: already5chosen@yahoo.com Subject: Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Message-ID: On Jan 9, 4:54 pm, "Eberhard Heuser" wrote: > Micheal, > > That's fine that it fits your needs. > > I cannot see why A3 is been selected. The postscript file come out > in my environment on a A4 printer. It might be a wrong setup of the printer > queue. > Hi Eberhard Last week I had no time to play with convert (plus a hidden hope that A3 output could be good enough). Today it became obvious that people want their A4. I again tried I tried one-liner option file containing "PS PAPER_SIZE A4". It made no difference at all. This time I'm pretty sure that the syntax is o.k. So could you describe the issue with a printer queue with little more details? > To you second question: >.....snip Thanks, I found other solution. Out of the fear to become rather unpopular in this newsgroup I'm not going to tell you which one exactly ;) Best Regards, Michael P.S. Does DECWrite editor have command line switches? If yes, where they are documented? I am asking because right now we have no options except DECWrite to get the desired postscript output. So even the very basic automation, like the ability to open a desired file without going through annoying DECWrite menus would help. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:46:21 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Message-ID: <4793ec81$0$22102$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Do a SET WATCH FILE/CLASS=DIR (needs to be in a very privileged account) before doing the CONVERT/DOCUMENT YOu will see whatever config files are being read during the conversion. Remember that DECWRITE uses the CDA format (compound document architecture) and it may be linking in some style files etc while it is being converted. Those style files may be the ones giving you the wrong page size. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:07:28 +0100 From: Marc Van Dyck Subject: Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs /NOLOGGED Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote : > A while ago, somone proposed CREATE/TERM/DETACHED/NOPROCESS as a way to > start a login process when you press return in the decterm window. > > I had been using CREATE/TERM/DETACHED/NOLOGGED before. > > The /NOPROCESS has an advantage since there isn't a timer started when > the window is created. /NOLOGGED automatically displays SYS$ANNOUCE and > the Username: prompt and the timer starts ticking right away. > > However, /NOPROCESS results in an interactive session which does not > have a properly defined DECW$%DISPLAY logical, so subsequent invocation > of X utilities will either fail, or go to the wrong display. > > /NOLOGGED does inherit the DECW$DISPLAY value that was in use when the > decterm was created so subsequent invocation of X applications will > target the same display as the decterm. Are you sure that /DETACHED and /NOPROCESS are compatible within the same command ? For me, /DETACH tells VMS to start a detached process, and /NOPROCESS to start no process at all, which looks rather antinomic. I use /NOPROCESS when I want just to create a device that the creator process will use later, like for example to redirect the input & output of the debugger... -- Marc Van Dyck ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:36:34 -0800 (PST) From: yyyc186 Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function Message-ID: <357aec0b-4cb3-4f73-922f-5364457ef352@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Jan 19, 10:10 pm, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > yyyc186 wrote: > > I'm not really interested in looking at anything MS has to say. What > > they produce is neither technology nor business quality software. > > Like the rest of the world, I'm moving to Ubuntu. > > Ubuntu is competing for the same customers as Windows. > > Have you considered something more "different": Centos, > Debian, Gentoo or maybe FreeBSD ? > > Arne I've looked at many. Ubuntu is the next wave. It has a sever edition besides the desktop editions. While I had some problems with one touchpad on a notebook and a minor glitch with the 64-bit version (other than SUN not being polite enough to supply an AMD 64-bit Java plug in) it is the cleanest implementation I have found. Novel will once again be raped by Microsoft so we should expect SuSE to disappear from the marketplace in about two years. That is how long it took MS to get them to kill off DR DOS and DR MDOS. Oracle is going to use its deep pockets to put Red Hat out of business. The product won't improve, Red Hat will just go under when Oracle offers to provide full corporate support for $50/year. Of course, Red Hat won't sell their proprietary package code to Oracle even when they are going under, and I don't blame them. That leaves Ubuntu as the distro to beat. DELL has already started shipping it on some systems, and quite a few small PC vendors are pre- loading it now as well. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:55:08 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function Message-ID: <4793d147$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> yyyc186 wrote: > On Jan 19, 10:10 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> yyyc186 wrote: >>> I'm not really interested in looking at anything MS has to say. What >>> they produce is neither technology nor business quality software. >>> Like the rest of the world, I'm moving to Ubuntu. >> Ubuntu is competing for the same customers as Windows. >> >> Have you considered something more "different": Centos, >> Debian, Gentoo or maybe FreeBSD ? > > I've looked at many. Ubuntu is the next wave. It has a sever edition > besides the desktop editions. It has a server edition, but it is not very widely used. > it is the cleanest implementation I have found. Cleanest in what way ? > Novel will > once again be raped by Microsoft so we should expect SuSE to disappear > from the marketplace in about two years. So far no signs of that happening. > Oracle is going to use > its deep pockets to put Red Hat out of business. The product won't > improve, Red Hat will just go under when Oracle offers to provide full > corporate support for $50/year. Of course, Red Hat won't sell their > proprietary package code to Oracle even when they are going under, and > I don't blame them. So far Redhat makes good money on RHEL. They have had some bumps lately, but they relate mostly to their acquisition of JBoss. You can see Oracle's current price list here: http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/els-pricelist.pdf I doubt they will offer the full service for 50 a year. > That leaves Ubuntu as the distro to beat. Not really. In the desktiop market: Ubuntu is leading over Fedora Core and Mandrivia. But in the server marker RHEL, SLES and to some extent Debian battle. Ubuntu is not a major player. > DELL has already started > shipping it on some systems, True. Dell sell Ubuntu on desktops and laptops. But they sell servers with RHEL and SLES. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:13:29 -0800 (PST) From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: How do I map an HP VMS keyboard within Apple X11 on Leopard? Message-ID: On Jan 19, 7:54 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "johnhreinha...@yahoo.com" writes: > > > > >On Jan 18, 6:32 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > >> Somebody here about a year ago reported working on a keyboard driver. > >> I don't think they've gotten beyond pie-in-the-sky. > > >I talked with someone, probably that person, about 6-9 months ago and > >at the time they had decided to wait for Leopard in th hopes the > >keyboard driver would be more versatile. > > Was this the person who was going to hack the driver? If so, can you send > me some contact info? I'd like to keep abreast of any successes he/she is > making in this regard. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html I tried to send you mail but apparently you have yahoo.com blacklisted (Not that I blame you), but perhaps you could whitelist my address? johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com Let me know John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:59:11 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Mike Magee to leave the INQUIRER Message-ID: On Jan 19, 11:09 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Since the Inquirer was the only media outlet with regular news on VMS > and that IA64 contraption, this might be relevant: > > >http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/01/18/mike-magee-lea... > > FOUNDER of the INQ, Mike Magee, is to leave the magazine at the end of > February. > > He started the mag in April 2001, shortly after a fall out with the > Rogister, which he co-founded. > > News ed Paul Hales will become editor of the INQ after Mageek goes. > > Mageek said: "I really do owe the readers of the INQUIRER and those who > supported me when I started it an apology, sorry really big vote of > thanks. I've enjoyed every day I've worked on the INQUIRER apart from > the day I had a triple bypass op. > > "I also want to thank the loyal bunch of hacks who've helped turn the > mag into the success story it became." [Who they? Ed.] > > So is the Mageek going to retire? "It's not time for me to hang up my > boots yet," he said, enigmatically, as if he owned a pair of boots. > > He's believed to be involved in a future project based in foreign > climes, but is being uncharacteristically coy about what he's doing. =B5 Many Compaq/HP employees hated this site but it seemed to me that most of their leaked news items were true about 90% of the time ("out- sourcing OpenVMS support to India" springs to mind; HP initially denied it). This site was probably indirectly responsible for that wire-tapping thing a couple of years back. :-) Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:22:03 +0000 (UTC) From: Patrick Finnegan Subject: Need VAX-11/780 diagnostics Message-ID: I'm trying to get my VAX 11/780 up and running, and it looks like I could use the following diagnostics: EVKAA Hardcore Instruction Test ESKAB - ESKAM Microdiagnostics ESXBA Bus Interaction Diagnostic ESXBB VAX System Diagnostic ESCAA Unibus Adapter Diagnostic If anyone has these available, in a form they can send me, please let me know. Thanks, Pat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:57:39 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: RSH service problem Message-ID: <4793e109$0$16200$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> JF Mezei wrote: > TCPIP utility picked up parts of the SYSLOG record to merge it with the > RSH record. It appears the TCPIP utility gets mightily confused when two > different services occupy the same port, one for UDP and the other for TCP. TCPIP 5.2 ECO 2 on the VAX has the same bug. One must delete the SYSLOG service entry (UDP at 514) before being able to add RSH (TCP at 514) otherwise the service record for RSH is all messged up with some of the SYSLOG data in it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:30:09 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <68edf5ac-7f46-4ea4-b5be-bc724c5d6532@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Jan 14, 2:14 pm, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > > On Jan 14, 6:52 am, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > >> In article <5a8447d4-af7d-42fa-907f-68b55658d...@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> > On Jan 11, 1:25 pm, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > >> >> TheQuickBrownFoxJumpsOverTheLazyDog/Jan2008 > > >> >> Entropy in that password once you guess the password generation scheme > >> >> is almost negligible. Given a 90 day password expiration policy > >> >> you could brute-force the key space in four tries. > > >> > Please clarify. > > >> Suppose that I as a user choose a password generation scheme: > > >> Whenever I am prompted to change my password, I will change it > >> to "TheQuickBrownFoxJumpsOverTheLazyDog/" where the > >> is determined from the then-current month and year. > > >> If I've reset the password sometime in the past three months then > >> the entropy in the password is no more than 1-2 bits. > > >> If you as an attacker compromise one of my passwords and correctly > >> guess the generation scheme then, in July you could crack my then-current > >> password in four guesses: > > >> TheQuickBrownFoxJumpsOverTheLazyDog/Apr2008 > >> TheQuickBrownFoxJumpsOverTheLazyDog/May2008 > >> TheQuickBrownFoxJumpsOverTheLazyDog/Jun2008 > >> TheQuickBrownFoxJumpsOverTheLazyDog/Jul2008 > > > What does this have to do with longer is stronger? > > It shows that long passwords can be weak. But you were talking about guessing the password-generation scheme, not that long passwords can be weak. You changed gears without notice! I still don't see what this has to do with long passwords. It seems these are two different topics: cracking the base password, and cracking the gen-scheme. > > > Once you correctly > > guess the scheme, it doesn't matter whether it's longer or complex. My > > point was that assuming the complex scheme enforced by Windows XP, > > there is little gain. Most people seem to think there is a log more > > gain than there really is. When you do the math, the number of > > possible passwords increases much faster with increasing length than > > with increasing complexity. > > If the problem you are having with password security is that > users are choosing predictable passwords then neither forcing them to > use "complex" passwords nor forcing them to use long passwords > is going to force them to choose strong passwords. Again, what does this have to do with poor password generation schemes? Also, by increasing the length of passwords instead of adding complexity you increase the password space much, much more. You get much more bang for the buck, so to speak. > > > I assume you are talking about an advantage of generated passwords, > > but you wrote this in response to my claim that longer is stronger. > > The fact of the mattter is that longer is not stronger until you > nail down the questions of "longer than what?", "stronger than what?" > and "how do you measure strength?". See above. And this still has nothing to do with generation schemes. I don't understand why you brought that up. If you end your password with month-year, it doesn't matter whether your system demands complex vs. long passwords. > > Sure it isn't any stronger ONCE you crack the generation scheme, and > > unless you've done that from an old backup tape, you're already in at > > that point anyway. > > There are other password attacks that don't involve already having > full access to the system that you're atttacking. My point was that once you were in you don't need to guess any password generation scheme. You're already in! What do you mean by "full access"? Sorry, I'm just not understanding what you wrote here. Did you read the InfoWorld articles I posted links to? Feel free to comment on them if you like. Here they are again copied from Paul Sture's post: > http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/07/21/30OPsecadvise_1.html "At 31 characters long, my password is all but unhackable." One of my first Linux installations silently dropped characters at the end of passwords and only used the first 6 characters. OK that was back in 2000, but think about it... > http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=http:/... g.infoworld.com/securityadviser/archives/2006/07/win_money_and_b.html > Apologies if it wraps badly. tinyurl for that http://preview.tinyurl.com/256u8g Thanks Paul! -- AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:52:42 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: This NG seems unusually quiet... Message-ID: On Jan 19, 10:21=A0am, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: > > Compared to this time last year, this NG seems unusually quiet. Is > > something going on the the OpenVMS world that I don't know about? Have > > all the OpenVMS developers already jumped to other platforms? Many > > previous contributors seem missing in action. > > Actually I think the number of on-topic posts are the same > as always. > > Less off-topic posts. > > But who the "%&=A4!%=A4"!%"! miss those ? > > Arne Not me. Let's stick with "on topic". Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/folding_at_home.html http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/Guaranteed_Human_Life_Extension.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:34:29 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Message-ID: <4793be61$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Only 1 out of the 6 languages are object oriented. > > Object orientation has a lot more to do with the design of the program > than with the language it's written in! A language may make object > orientation easy or difficult and may enforce object orientation or not > but OO has nothing to do with the language the code is written in. > > OO defines one or more data structures packaged with the legitimate > operations on those data structures. Someone, maybe Brian, commented > recently on the object orientation of code written in Macro-32!! > Macro-32 is by no means an OO language but that shouldn't prevent you > from writing OO in Macro. True. But you will rely more on the programmer than on the compiler. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:53:10 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Message-ID: <4793C2C6.3060703@comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> >>> Only 1 out of the 6 languages are object oriented. >> >> >> Object orientation has a lot more to do with the design of the program >> than with the language it's written in! A language may make object >> orientation easy or difficult and may enforce object orientation or >> not but OO has nothing to do with the language the code is written in. >> >> OO defines one or more data structures packaged with the legitimate >> operations on those data structures. Someone, maybe Brian, commented >> recently on the object orientation of code written in Macro-32!! >> Macro-32 is by no means an OO language but that shouldn't prevent you >> from writing OO in Macro. > > > True. > > But you will rely more on the programmer than on the compiler. > > Arne Don't you ALWAYS have to rely on the programmer? A compiler can be a useful tool but a GOOD programmer is a treasure! A compiler can catch the stupid mistakes but the clever mistakes are a whole different problem! There have been many tools and techniques that were supposed to "fix everything". None of them have been an unqualified success! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:20:22 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Message-ID: <4793c920$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>> Only 1 out of the 6 languages are object oriented. >>> Object orientation has a lot more to do with the design of the >>> program than with the language it's written in! A language may make >>> object orientation easy or difficult and may enforce object >>> orientation or not but OO has nothing to do with the language the >>> code is written in. >>> >>> OO defines one or more data structures packaged with the legitimate >>> operations on those data structures. Someone, maybe Brian, commented >>> recently on the object orientation of code written in Macro-32!! >>> Macro-32 is by no means an OO language but that shouldn't prevent you >>> from writing OO in Macro. >> >> True. >> >> But you will rely more on the programmer than on the compiler. > > Don't you ALWAYS have to rely on the programmer? A compiler can be a > useful tool but a GOOD programmer is a treasure! A compiler can catch > the stupid mistakes but the clever mistakes are a whole different problem! That is true, but it does not make a compiler that catches some errors not useful. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:37:01 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Message-ID: <4793cd09$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> yyyc186 wrote: > On Jan 19, 10:08 pm, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> yyyc186 wrote: >>> Given that OOP >>> has fallen out of favor in the industry >> On what planet ? Not this one ! > > Yes, this planet. There have been quite a few things which turned the > tide against it. That is not what I am seeing. Java lives fine. .NET is growing. PHP is going towards OOP. > Yes, there are quite a few companies looking to hire > Java programmers and pay well, but what are they writing. Little > servlets to connect to back end "legacy" bread and butter > applications. When you look at those servlets, you see that even > though they are written in an object oriented language, they aren't > really object oriented themselves. More of a read-transform-push > linear procedure. I don't find your argumentation particular convincing. Very few write servlets these days. Struts/JSF/whatever framework is used comes with a controller servlet and then then JSP pages (or other view technologies) and various pieces of Java code is used. > Ever used commercial Object Oriented C++ class libraries? I have. > What happens when you immerse yourself completely in OOP and one or > more of those packages? A new release comes out with massive changes > to the classes you inherited from. Your application becomes a > complete rewrite. That massive changing libraries can cause a lot of rewrite work is not limited to OOP. Besides "inheriting". It is 10-15 year ago since the trend switched from inheritance to composition. > The other things which has really torpedoed Java on the Web and forced > a lot of commercial Web sites to use only JavaScript is Sun's brain > dead refusal to put out an AMD 64-bit Java plug in. > Sun had a really good run with Java, but the refusal to put out the 64- > bit plugins (even though they build 64-bit jdk and jre) took Java out > of the Web world for companies that want to sell enough to stay in > business. If I were to estimate the split between server side Java and client side Java on the web then I would guess at about 99.5% server side and 0.5% client side. Java applets stopped as major Java technology when MS announced that they would not continue to ship Windows with Java. It is a shame that SUN has not release a 64 bit Java plugin, but it has very little impact on Java as such. > So, I must stand by that statement. SOA is "the next big thing" the > Gartner Group has been paid to hype and they have paid the Big x firms > to sell it. SOA simply isn't about OOP. It's about exposing all > those money making applications to the applications which aren't > making you any money via XML messages in a procedural or event driven > fashion. I think there are a few that implements SOA via SOAP ... Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:53:39 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: January 20, 2008 5:37 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies > > yyyc186 wrote: > > On Jan 19, 10:08 pm, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > >> yyyc186 wrote: > >>> Given that OOP > >>> has fallen out of favor in the industry > >> On what planet ? Not this one ! > > > > Yes, this planet. There have been quite a few things which turned > the > > tide against it. > > That is not what I am seeing. Java lives fine. .NET is growing. PHP > is going towards OOP. > > > Yes, there are quite a few companies looking to > hire > > Java programmers and pay well, but what are they writing. Little > > servlets to connect to back end "legacy" bread and butter > > applications. When you look at those servlets, you see that even > > though they are written in an object oriented language, they aren't > > really object oriented themselves. More of a read-transform-push > > linear procedure. > > I don't find your argumentation particular convincing. > > Very few write servlets these days. Struts/JSF/whatever framework > is used comes with a controller servlet and then then JSP pages > (or other view technologies) and various pieces of Java code is used. > > > Ever used commercial Object Oriented C++ class libraries? I have. > > What happens when you immerse yourself completely in OOP and one or > > more of those packages? A new release comes out with massive changes > > to the classes you inherited from. Your application becomes a > > complete rewrite. > > That massive changing libraries can cause a lot of rewrite work > is not limited to OOP. > > Besides "inheriting". It is 10-15 year ago since the trend switched > from inheritance to composition. > > > The other things which has really torpedoed Java on the Web and > forced > > a lot of commercial Web sites to use only JavaScript is Sun's brain > > dead refusal to put out an AMD 64-bit Java plug in. > > > Sun had a really good run with Java, but the refusal to put out the > 64- > > bit plugins (even though they build 64-bit jdk and jre) took Java > out > > of the Web world for companies that want to sell enough to stay in > > business. > > If I were to estimate the split between server side Java and > client side Java on the web then I would guess at about 99.5% > server side and 0.5% client side. > > Java applets stopped as major Java technology when MS announced > that they would not continue to ship Windows with Java. > > It is a shame that SUN has not release a 64 bit Java plugin, but > it has very little impact on Java as such. > > > So, I must stand by that statement. SOA is "the next big thing" the > > Gartner Group has been paid to hype and they have paid the Big x > firms > > to sell it. SOA simply isn't about OOP. It's about exposing all > > those money making applications to the applications which aren't > > making you any money via XML messages in a procedural or event driven > > fashion. > > I think there are a few that implements SOA via SOAP ... > > Arne > Well, from what I have seen, while many shops are talking about SOA and some are actually doing small pilots or have new programs with limited risks involved, very few shops have actually implemented SOA in a very big way. Typically the ones who have doe this are large IT shops with very centralized IT groups that have the power to mandate what happens. If one wants to understand why SOA has not taken off, all they have to do is research why DCE never took off. Same strategy, different era. The concept of breaking up programs into distributed services is great in theory, but has a basic flaw in that corporations do not work that way from a cultural perspective. SOA implementation is a huge cultural and different way of developing applications, different tools and different skill sets than what most companies have today. And all of this is happening at a time when IT departments are being asked to slash their IT budgets. In addition, Customers are implementing massive consolidation programs, so distributed architectures and strategies run counter to the primary consolidation strategy. DCE failed for similar reasons. It was not for technical reasons. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.041 ************************