INFO-VAX Sun, 10 Feb 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 82 Contents: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: CIFS cluster setup Re: CIFS cluster setup Iffy DCL IF Re: OT: Hack contest Re: OT: Hack contest TU58 cartridges Re: TU58 cartridges Re: VT100 standards RE: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Feb 2008 10:34:31 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: In article <77ebedef-58dd-4d76-9eef-323939a9d91d@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > Well, what about the DIRECTORY command, then? It gives warning for no > files found, error for directory not found, and severe error for bad > device: > > DCL> DIR ASDF.ASDF > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found > DCL> SH SYM $SEVERITY > $SEVERITY == "0" > DCL> DIR [ASDF] > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$DATA1:[ASDF]*.*;* as input > -RMS-E-DNF, directory not found > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file > DCL> SH SYM $SEVERITY > $SEVERITY == "2" > DCL> DIR ASDF: > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[FELDMAN.DCL.PLAY]*.*;* as input > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > operation > DCL> SH SYM $SEVERITY > $SEVERITY == "4" > DCL> > > And in the last case, the %-severity disagrees with the $SEVERITY > severity. If you look closely, you may notice that the exit status produced by $ DIRECTORY matches the underlying error code, if any, rather than the outermost error code that is displayed by $ DIRECTORY. $ dir [asdf] %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening EISNER$DRA3:[ASDF]*.*;* as input -RMS-E-DNF, directory not found -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file $ show sym $status $STATUS == "%X1001C04A" $ exit %x1c04a %RMS-E-DNF, directory not found $ dir asdf: %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[DECUSERVE_USER.BRIGGS]*.*;* as input -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation $ show sym $status $STATUS == "%X100184C4" $ exit %x184c4 %RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation There is no discrepancy between $SEVERITY and $STATUS There is a discrepancy between $STATUS and the displayed error message. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2008 16:05:20 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <618lm0F1tu8mhU1@mid.individual.net> In article <13qru22h9k5bh83@corp.supernews.com>, "John Wallace" writes: > > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message > news:615s8uF1sdudmU1@mid.individual.net... >> In article <47AD22BA.15A1322A@spam.comcast.net>, >> David J Dachtera writes: >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> There are thousands of people out there with the knowledge of linux and > unix >> >> to do it. There isn't for VMS for the obvious reason that the same > level >> >> of avaialble information has never existed for VMS. No one has the > sources. >> >> No one but HP can build versions of it. So, if you want to use VMS you >> >> have to go to HP and pay what ever they want for it. That's buysiness. >> >> You can't build an equivalent business on software you are required to > hand >> >> to your competitors. But then, if believe all software must be freei > and you >> >> still want to feed your family, I understand WallMart and McDonalds are > still >> >> hiring. >> > >> > The problem I have with that business model is that it's sort of like a >> > light bulb that never fails: you sell it ONCE (think: "everlasting >> > gobstopper"). >> >> Which business model? Two, rather opposite, models are mentioned above. >> >> > Support, on the other hand, is either a monthly, >> > quarterly, yearly or some other recurring charge (read: "cash flow"). >> > >> > That's known as "residual income" in some circles, rather like rental >> > income on an apartment building, royalties of various kinds, etc. >> >> And that is pretty much where the majority of VMS revenue is coming from >> at this point, I would imagine. BUt, the point is, under the GPL business >> model you can't even plan on a profit from this (unless you cheat on the >> license) because once you have gicen away all the sources to your product >> someone with the requisite skills but without the development expenses >> to recoup can undercut you on the cost of support leaving you with less >> is anything at all. >> >> I guess what it all comes down to is wether or not people really want to >> see VMS remain (and maybe even win back some status) as a viable > commercial >> operating system or if they are satisfied with it degenerating to the >> point of merely another hobbyist toy. >> >> >> Having given some thought to the whole thing recently, I have come up with >> what might be another interesting concept for those who have a commercial >> interest in seeing VMS thrive (or at least survive). The idea of buying >> it from HP has been broached but is not realistic as the cost would be >> prohibitive and, anyway, it ain't for sale. That has led to talk of >> cloning it and the arguments over licensing. But, how about a third >> possible alternative? Anyone ever considered talking to HP about the >> possibility of getting a non-exclusive license to develop, sell and >> maintain VMS? This was actually done with Unix a lot in the early days. >> It is what got us XENIX, Venix, Onyx and any number of other proprietary >> Unix clones. The same model might be doable for VMS, especially when >> you look at the number of people with serious experience who are no >> longer under contract to HP. Comments anyone? >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >> bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > > Comments? Yes. I don't understand. > > The business model you propose, involving a fragmented market, is how > proprietary Unixes got where they are today - near invisible, despite the > efforts of the standards bodies and others, including DEC, who were involved > in trying to produce a "unified UNIX" at best, or as a minimum a set of > standards which would allow multiple independent vendors in that fragmented > market to realistically claim a certain level of "UNIX compatibility" (which > is of course how VMS came to be OpenVMS). > > Today, the OSF/1 "unified UNIX" is long dead, POSIX, XPG.4 etc are largely > irrelevant, which is a shame, but afaict it's where we are. Another part of > how we got where we are today is the "WNT is the new VMS" myth, which > hopefully is largely debunked these days, but even so, how does a fragmented > market of not quite compatible VMSes (with no overall standards body?) help > anyone with a serious interest in VMS? Well, I didn't see it as fragmenting, I saw it as the only chance that development of VMS will continue. Fragmented assumes that HP is going to continue development and go in a differnt direction. I don't see HP going anywhere at all. especially if the goal is to get VMS runnning on comodity hardware. As for the fragmentation of Unix, it was very deliberate as companies tried to diferentiate themselves looking for a competitive advantage. OSF was a joke from the beginning as are most "standardization" attempts by academics who have at best a warped under- standing of the real IT world. I would say that except for the fact that the remaining proprietary Unix vendors are ignoring it (no surprise there) the BSD's are Unix standardization. And Linux is the one trying to, once again, fragment the market. > > Maybe if someone could find a "social networking" web angle for it they'd be > in with a chance of raising a few hundred million for venture capital, > that's been trendy for the last few months (given that none of the current > MBAs-in-charge knows anything about CompuServe or CIX), but you may just be > a bit late. I don't think it would take "a few hundred million" unless, of course, it turned out that that was the minimum price HP wanted for a license. I think there is a wealth of free advertising available, as evidenced by Linux's early days. I think if VMS were made available on commodity hardware and put into the public's eye once again it could see a renaisance. But, I also see this as just a pipe dream because while I no longer have any real investment in VMS, those that do seem uninterested in trying to find a way to revive it and seem satisfied to complain about HP's mis-management of one of it's mmost valuable assets while doing nothing to find any kind of an alternative. I guess it's time to just let it die peacefully. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2008 18:02:04 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <618sgsF1tv61cU1@mid.individual.net> In article <47AF2CF2.7060209@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <13qru22h9k5bh83@corp.supernews.com>, >> "John Wallace" writes: >> >>>"Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message >>>news:615s8uF1sdudmU1@mid.individual.net... >>> >>>>In article <47AD22BA.15A1322A@spam.comcast.net>, >>>>David J Dachtera writes: >>>> >>>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>[snip] >>>>>>There are thousands of people out there with the knowledge of linux and >>>>> >>>unix >>> >>>>>>to do it. There isn't for VMS for the obvious reason that the same >>>>> >>>level >>> >>>>>>of avaialble information has never existed for VMS. No one has the >>>>> >>>sources. >>> >>>>>>No one but HP can build versions of it. So, if you want to use VMS you >>>>>>have to go to HP and pay what ever they want for it. That's buysiness. >>>>>>You can't build an equivalent business on software you are required to >>>>> >>>hand >>> >>>>>>to your competitors. But then, if believe all software must be freei >>>>> >>>and you >>> >>>>>>still want to feed your family, I understand WallMart and McDonalds are >>>>> >>>still >>> >>>>>>hiring. >>>>> >>>>>The problem I have with that business model is that it's sort of like a >>>>>light bulb that never fails: you sell it ONCE (think: "everlasting >>>>>gobstopper"). >>>> >>>>Which business model? Two, rather opposite, models are mentioned above. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Support, on the other hand, is either a monthly, >>>>>quarterly, yearly or some other recurring charge (read: "cash flow"). >>>>> >>>>>That's known as "residual income" in some circles, rather like rental >>>>>income on an apartment building, royalties of various kinds, etc. >>>> >>>>And that is pretty much where the majority of VMS revenue is coming from >>>>at this point, I would imagine. BUt, the point is, under the GPL business >>>>model you can't even plan on a profit from this (unless you cheat on the >>>>license) because once you have gicen away all the sources to your product >>>>someone with the requisite skills but without the development expenses >>>>to recoup can undercut you on the cost of support leaving you with less >>>>is anything at all. >>>> >>>>I guess what it all comes down to is wether or not people really want to >>>>see VMS remain (and maybe even win back some status) as a viable >>> >>>commercial >>> >>>>operating system or if they are satisfied with it degenerating to the >>>>point of merely another hobbyist toy. >>>> >>>> >>>>Having given some thought to the whole thing recently, I have come up with >>>>what might be another interesting concept for those who have a commercial >>>>interest in seeing VMS thrive (or at least survive). The idea of buying >>>>it from HP has been broached but is not realistic as the cost would be >>>>prohibitive and, anyway, it ain't for sale. That has led to talk of >>>>cloning it and the arguments over licensing. But, how about a third >>>>possible alternative? Anyone ever considered talking to HP about the >>>>possibility of getting a non-exclusive license to develop, sell and >>>>maintain VMS? This was actually done with Unix a lot in the early days. >>>>It is what got us XENIX, Venix, Onyx and any number of other proprietary >>>>Unix clones. The same model might be doable for VMS, especially when >>>>you look at the number of people with serious experience who are no >>>>longer under contract to HP. Comments anyone? >>>> >>>>bill >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >>>>bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >>>>University of Scranton | >>>>Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include >>> >>>Comments? Yes. I don't understand. >>> >>>The business model you propose, involving a fragmented market, is how >>>proprietary Unixes got where they are today - near invisible, despite the >>>efforts of the standards bodies and others, including DEC, who were involved >>>in trying to produce a "unified UNIX" at best, or as a minimum a set of >>>standards which would allow multiple independent vendors in that fragmented >>>market to realistically claim a certain level of "UNIX compatibility" (which >>>is of course how VMS came to be OpenVMS). >>> >>>Today, the OSF/1 "unified UNIX" is long dead, POSIX, XPG.4 etc are largely >>>irrelevant, which is a shame, but afaict it's where we are. Another part of >>>how we got where we are today is the "WNT is the new VMS" myth, which >>>hopefully is largely debunked these days, but even so, how does a fragmented >>>market of not quite compatible VMSes (with no overall standards body?) help >>>anyone with a serious interest in VMS? >> >> >> Well, I didn't see it as fragmenting, I saw it as the only chance that >> development of VMS will continue. Fragmented assumes that HP is going >> to continue development and go in a differnt direction. I don't see >> HP going anywhere at all. especially if the goal is to get VMS runnning >> on comodity hardware. > > "Commodity hardware" is a target that's moving pretty fast. Well, by commodity I (and I am sure others who have talked about this) I meant the general x86|x86/64 architecture with no requirement that you chase a constantly moving target. General support would mean that most systems would work. > The machine > you buy today will no longer be manufactured six months from now. What is the average manufacturing lifespan of an Itanium system today? Can you still buy last years models? (Would you want to, but that's a different question!) > Eight > months from now your only choice will be to buy one used. I can run the same software on commodity class machines manufactured over the past 10 years, at least. Changes are, in most cases, trivial and backwards compatable. A change in CPU speed is noit likely to require a new version of VMS on commodity hardware any more than it did on the VAX or the Alpha. > It's also > designed to run Windows or, possibly, Linux. Or BSD or QNX or Plan-9 or........ > Ask FredK about Graphics > cards and drivers! Anyone remember his comment that "graphics cards > have the lifespan of the average fruit fly?" Considering what graphics hardware support VMS has now, that hardly seems relevant exc ept that it might actually make it possible to bring VMSX's graphics support up to at least 20th century standards. Just like my comment above, there is no reason why one would expect VMS users to play "let's chase the latest and greatest". I am still using cards that hyave been around for over 10 years. ATI Rage, even Mach64's. Support for even these cards, which at this point are well documented, would be a great big step forward from whatg VMS supports now. > > Windows and Linux seem to be able to keep up, perhaps because the > manufacturers provide drivers that will enable these O/S's to run on > their hardware. I can't see any manufacturer providing similar support > for VMS. Hmmmm.... Can't say as I have ever seen a graphics driver for Linux that came with any of the cards I have ever had. Windows seems to be all the manufacturers care about. I have seen Linux support for SCSI and RAID and even a couple of Ethernet cards, but that's about it. > Frankly, the market is just too small! Maybe that explains > why HP is no longer interested. But I thought that people here wanted that trend reversed. Waiting for HP do do it is a zero-sum game. I was just trying to throw out ideas that might actually accomplish something. But it is really beginning to look like everyone here has given up on it and all they plan to do is complain and wait for VMS to finally just disappear. Of course, I could be proven wrong if others would start tossing out viable solutions to save it. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:26:59 -0800 (PST) From: Sue Subject: Re: CIFS cluster setup Message-ID: On Feb 8, 6:48=A0pm, Rich Jordan wrote: > Barely started working on one CIFS setup, so far unable to get proper > security, and already got people clamoring for more, and yesterday. > (I heard Samba was good, and its free, and its available for my > Alpha!) =A0Hooray for sales. > > Two node Alpha cluster (LAVC + SCSI cluster) running TCPIP services > with the old-style cluster alias address and hostname and VMS V8.3. > Due to old redundancy requirements the two systems are running > separate local system disks that are NOT on the shared bus. =A0The > shared disks are shadowed, and the cluster common files (SYSUAF, > RIGHTSLIST, queue files, etc, all the ones recommended in the cluster > manual) are on shared storage accessible to either node with the other > one offline. > > Although it hasn't been specified there is no doubt they will want > CIFS to be redundant and cluster "aware" or at least cluster friendly > too. =A0Based on the scant info in the documentation HP provides, I > don't think it can be either. > > CIFS can be installed on shared drives; its shares can be created on > those drives. =A0Does CIFS currently have any support for running in a > cluster, using the cluster alias address for connections (perhaps load > balancing that way), keeping service up if a node goes down, sharing > access to config files, CIFS images, and actual share directories, > etc? =A0We just barely started scratching the surface with this product > and ran into a dealbreaking security problem that I still haven't had > time to properly test and work through based on suggestions received > from HP (thank you, HP!). =A0The cluster site does not have the same > security requirements, so that won't be an issue, but the cluster- > reliability aspect will be (at least they will want it to be). > > Thanks for any thoughts or info. > > Rich Rich have you sent mail to the CIFS engineering group? I do not want to if you already have. Sue ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:41:52 -0800 (PST) From: Sue Subject: Re: CIFS cluster setup Message-ID: On Feb 10, 11:26=A0am, Sue wrote: > On Feb 8, 6:48=A0pm, Rich Jordan wrote: > > > > > > > Barely started working on one CIFS setup, so far unable to get proper > > security, and already got people clamoring for more, and yesterday. > > (I heard Samba was good, and its free, and its available for my > > Alpha!) =A0Hooray for sales. > > > Two node Alpha cluster (LAVC + SCSI cluster) running TCPIP services > > with the old-style cluster alias address and hostname and VMS V8.3. > > Due to old redundancy requirements the two systems are running > > separate local system disks that are NOT on the shared bus. =A0The > > shared disks are shadowed, and the cluster common files (SYSUAF, > > RIGHTSLIST, queue files, etc, all the ones recommended in the cluster > > manual) are on shared storage accessible to either node with the other > > one offline. > > > Although it hasn't been specified there is no doubt they will want > > CIFS to be redundant and cluster "aware" or at least cluster friendly > > too. =A0Based on the scant info in the documentation HP provides, I > > don't think it can be either. > > > CIFS can be installed on shared drives; its shares can be created on > > those drives. =A0Does CIFS currently have any support for running in a > > cluster, using the cluster alias address for connections (perhaps load > > balancing that way), keeping service up if a node goes down, sharing > > access to config files, CIFS images, and actual share directories, > > etc? =A0We just barely started scratching the surface with this product > > and ran into a dealbreaking security problem that I still haven't had > > time to properly test and work through based on suggestions received > > from HP (thank you, HP!). =A0The cluster site does not have the same > > security requirements, so that won't be an issue, but the cluster- > > reliability aspect will be (at least they will want it to be). > > > Thanks for any thoughts or info. > > > Rich > > Rich have you sent mail to the CIFS engineering group? =A0I do not want > to if you already have. > > Sue- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Rich I checked with engineering, you need to log a call it is important. Sue ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2008 11:34:34 -0600 From: burley+news@encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) Subject: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: $!TEST.COM $ if "''p1'" .eqs. "" .and. "''p2'" .nes. "" $ then write sys$output "true" $ endif $ exit $ @test true Er, ok, I forgot the continuation "-" at the end of line 2, but why no error for line 3? It seems that DCL silently eats lines following an IF until it finds a line with a leading $. It's the same in all the VMS versions I've tried, is this a well known feature or a long standing bug? $!TEST1.COM $ if 1 I want an error here! I should get an error here? $ then write sys$output "true" $ endif $ exit $ @test1 true ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:49:00 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: OT: Hack contest Message-ID: Hi Bill, > VMS isn't Tiger Woods, it's Arnold Palmer. Jack Newton :-) Cheers Richard Maher "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:615ncaF1sqg1sU1@mid.individual.net... > In article , > "Tom Linden" writes: > > On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:18:51 -0800, Phaeton = > > = > > > > wrote: > > > >> > >> http://www.news.com/2102-1002_3-6229577.html?tag=3Dst.util.print > >> > >> > >> Vista, Leopard, Linux to compete in hack contest. > >> > >> ------------------------ > >> > >> I wonder why VMS is not there... :-) > > > > It is like golf these days, when Tiger is playing the field is competing= > > > > for second place. > > Nice analogy, but a little off the mark. > > VMS isn't Tiger Woods, it's Arnold Palmer. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2008 15:46:24 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Hack contest Message-ID: <618kigF1u13vtU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 05:15:54 -0800, Bill Gunshannon u> = > > wrote: > >>> It is like golf these days, when Tiger is playing the field is = > >>> competing=3D >>> >>> for second place. >> Nice analogy, but a little off the mark. >> VMS isn't Tiger Woods, it's Arnold Palmer. > > Well I agree that it hasn't moved with the times like z/os Not sure if that was tongue-in-cheek, but it still missed the point. It's not that VMS is just old, it's also no longer in the game. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2008 15:48:41 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: TU58 cartridges Message-ID: <618kmoF1u13vtU2@mid.individual.net> Anybody got some TU58 cartridges they want to get rid of for the cost of postage? I could use a bunch. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:39:32 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: TU58 cartridges Message-ID: <47AF28C4.9090801@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Anybody got some TU58 cartridges they want to get rid of for the > cost of postage? I could use a bunch. :-) > > bill > > I've got three. Two of them are labeled HSC V4.1 Software and the other is labeled "blank". AFAIK, they were never used. Three for $15 and I'll pay the postage. $10 if you want to come to Turnersville and haul them away. Looking at my Atlas, it looks as if mailing them would be the better deal. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:25:32 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: VT100 standards Message-ID: Hi, It looks like this LED thing's got legs after all. Maybe HP/VMS can convene an emergency meeting of the FIMS committee to see if LED and ^G control via IFDL, can get ratified in the next session? Regards Richard Maher "Richard Maher" wrote what he assumed no one could possibly take seriously. . . > Hi, > > Is anyone willing to discuss at length the escape sequences for lighting up > my VT100 LEDs? If we could incorporate that with some form of ^G pitch > control then I really think we can show off VMS's core strengths :-( > > Regards Richard Maher > > PS. Is it true that VT100s shipped with a choice of cord length? I've often > wondered what the part numbers might have been. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:16:49 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: ewilts@ewilts.org [mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org] > Sent: February 9, 2008 4:39 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? > > On Feb 9, 12:32 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > > How does it benefit HP to support competitor's printers? Sure, it's > a > > nice and generous thing to do . . . . > > You may not have noticed that HP supports Linux, an active competitor > to HP-UX. They support Windows with printer drivers, camera software, > storage, and a ton of other stuff. > > HP is a large company and the small amount of revenue they'll lose on > their printers by supporting them on OpenVMS will be more than made up > for by their OpenVMS-based support contracts, both hardware and > software. I can't imagine many customers saying that they'll switch > operating systems because the printers they want to use aren't > supported. You've got hopefully satisfied OpenVMS customers - keep > them that way. > > .../Ed As Ed stated, HP is a 104B+ company. Each BU makes most of its own decisions as to what it needs to do to support its Customers. That is no different than other large companies like IBM. Same goes for consulting services where we regularly deal With Solaris, z/OS, AIX, and whatever else the cust has that needs to be integrated as part of an overall solution. If consulting services does not have the required skills available internally, then we sub-contract to partners and/or other smaller companies. (IBM does the same btw) It's a big multi-vendor world out there and one needs to recognize that cust's are not going to buy everything from one vendor. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.082 ************************