INFO-VAX Mon, 11 Feb 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 84 Contents: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Cool Bananas! Re: Cool Bananas! Re: Cool Bananas! Re: Cool Bananas! Re: Cool Bananas! Re: Cool Bananas! Re: Cool Bananas! Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Federal Podcasts - Federal Court of Justice Re: IA64 VMS installation DVD creation. Re: Iffy DCL IF Re: Iffy DCL IF Re: Iffy DCL IF Re: Iffy DCL IF Re: Iffy DCL IF SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Re: TU58 cartridges Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Re: VMSINSTAL Message Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? XP1000 and DEGPA-TA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:31:47 -0800 (PST) From: Big John Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <40f650ed-2b9e-41f3-b016-57e2cf73d9be@b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> I don't know where you got the idea that edit will only process a single file spec, but this is definitely not the case (of course you mentioned TPU, and it is possible to write your own editor in TPU that will only process the first filespec in a list, but I assume you are referring to the default dec-supppied EVE editor).. $ edit login.com,debug.ini [From the full screen, hit the DO and type] Command: show buffers -and you get the list Buffer name Lines Attributes LOGIN.COM 152 DEBUG.INI 4 - It clearly does not ignore all but the first file specification in the list. Perhaps you are confusing it with EDT, which does not process file lists. But in this case, it does not pretend to.. =DF edit/edt login.com,debug.ini %DCL-W-NOLIST, list of parameter values not allowed - check use of comma (,) \LOGIN.COM,DEBUG\ -Both cases correctly match the documented behaviour. Perhaps you are getting them confused? - John On Feb 8, 5:54=A0pm, chessmaster1...@hotmail.com wrote: > On Jan 31, 10:05=A0pm, AEF wrote:> On Jan 29, 6:1= 4 pm, Fred Bach wrote: > > The reason the status for TYPing a non-existant file is only a warning > is simple - it does not abort TYPE. =A0If your TYPE command line has a > list of files and one or more of the files in the list do not exist, > TYPE will output the warnings for those files but continue and type > out any files in the list that do exist. =A0 The %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL > warning is returned as the final status even if the final file in the > list was ok. > > The behaviour is similar if one of the files found can not be opened > by TYPE, for example due to it being locked by another user. =A0You get > a %TYPE-W-OPENIN warning and then TYPE moves on to the next file. > This could happen even if you used a single file specification if it > has wildcards.. > > Strangely though when both of these warnings occur %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL > is always returned as the final status even when %TYPE-W-OPENIN occurs > for the final file accessed. > > EDIT, on the other hand, will only process a single file spec (the > default EDIT verb syntax does accept a file list, but as far as I can > tell TPU ignores all but the first file specification in the list). > Since in this case you are only processing one file it makes sense > that any error accessing that file would be a fatal error. > > > > > > > Well, I wouldn't want to STOP on severe errors as I'd probably want to > > do some cleanup. Also, it's somewhat arbitrary what constitutes a > > warning vs. an error vs. a "severe error". Why should editing ADSF: be > > fatal while TYPEing it only a warning?: > > > $ TYPE ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF > > %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF.LIS; > > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > > operation > > $ SH SYM $SEVERITY > > =A0 $SEVERITY =3D=3D "0" > > $ > > $ EDIT/EDT ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF > > %EDT-F-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF.; as input > > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > > operation > > $ SH SYM $SEVERITY > > =A0 $SEVERITY =3D=3D "4" > > $- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:04:11 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <779c24e0-a652-4951-b254-7c69b9c80158@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> > On Feb 8, 5:54 pm, chessmaster1...@hotmail.com wrote: [top-posting converted back to sequential posting] > > > On Jan 31, 10:05 pm, AEF wrote:> On Jan 29, 6:1= 4 pm, Fred Bach wrote: > > > The reason the status for TYPing a non-existant file is only a warning > > is simple - it does not abort TYPE. If your TYPE command line has a > > list of files and one or more of the files in the list do not exist, > > TYPE will output the warnings for those files but continue and type > > out any files in the list that do exist. The %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL > > warning is returned as the final status even if the final file in the > > list was ok. > > > The behaviour is similar if one of the files found can not be opened > > by TYPE, for example due to it being locked by another user. You get > > a %TYPE-W-OPENIN warning and then TYPE moves on to the next file. > > This could happen even if you used a single file specification if it > > has wildcards.. > > > Strangely though when both of these warnings occur %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL > > is always returned as the final status even when %TYPE-W-OPENIN occurs > > for the final file accessed. > > > EDIT, on the other hand, will only process a single file spec (the > > default EDIT verb syntax does accept a file list, but as far as I can > > tell TPU ignores all but the first file specification in the list). > > Since in this case you are only processing one file it makes sense > > that any error accessing that file would be a fatal error. > > > > Well, I wouldn't want to STOP on severe errors as I'd probably want to= > > > do some cleanup. Also, it's somewhat arbitrary what constitutes a > > > warning vs. an error vs. a "severe error". Why should editing ADSF: be= > > > fatal while TYPEing it only a warning?: > > > > $ TYPE ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF > > > %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF.LIS; > > > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > > > operation > > > $ SH SYM $SEVERITY > > > $SEVERITY =3D=3D "0" > > > $ > > > $ EDIT/EDT ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF > > > %EDT-F-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF.; as input > > > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > > > operation > > > $ SH SYM $SEVERITY > > > $SEVERITY =3D=3D "4" > > > $- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - On Feb 11, 4:31 am, Big John wrote: > I don't know where you got the idea that edit will only process a > single file spec, but this is definitely not the case (of course you > mentioned TPU, and it is possible to write your own editor in TPU that > will only process the first filespec in a list, but I assume you are > referring to the default dec-supppied EVE editor).. > > $ edit login.com,debug.ini > > [From the full screen, hit the DO and type] > Command: show buffers > -and you get the list > > Buffer name Lines Attributes > > LOGIN.COM 152 > DEBUG.INI 4 > > - It clearly does not ignore all but the first file specification in > the list. Perhaps you are confusing it with EDT, which does not > process file lists. But in this case, it does not pretend to.. What? Confusing TPU with EDT? My example clearly shows EDT. It is you who are getting confused. Here it is again: > > > $ EDIT/EDT ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF ^^^^ > > > %EDT-F-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[ASDF]ASDF.; as input > > > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > > > operation > > > $ SH SYM $SEVERITY > > > $SEVERITY =3D=3D "4" > > =DF edit/edt login.com,debug.ini > %DCL-W-NOLIST, list of parameter values not allowed - check use of > comma (,) > \LOGIN.COM,DEBUG\ This is a parameter-list error, not an editor-program error. > > -Both cases correctly match the documented behaviour. Perhaps you are > getting them confused? > - John > He was probably thinking of a wildcarded file-spec. DCL> EDIT/EDT BLAH*.* %EDT-F-OPENIN, error opening DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN.FT.MENU]BLAH*.*; as input -RMS-F-WLD, invalid wildcard operation DCL> EDIT/EDT BLAH: %EDT-F-OPENIN, error opening BLAH:[FELDMAN.FT.MENU].; as input -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation DCL> AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:16:49 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: On Feb 11, 10:04 am, AEF wrote: > > On Feb 8, 5:54 pm, chessmaster1...@hotmail.com wrote: > > [top-posting converted back to sequential posting] > > > > > > > > On Jan 31, 10:05 pm, AEF wrote:> On Jan 29, 6= :14 pm, Fred Bach wrote: > [...big snip...] > > =DF edit/edt login.com,debug.ini > > %DCL-W-NOLIST, list of parameter values not allowed - check use of > > comma (,) > > \LOGIN.COM,DEBUG\ > > This is a parameter-list error, not an editor-program error. > > > > > -Both cases correctly match the documented behaviour. Perhaps you are > > getting them confused? > > - John > > He was probably thinking of a wildcarded file-spec. > > DCL> EDIT/EDT BLAH*.* > %EDT-F-OPENIN, error opening DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN.FT.MENU]BLAH*.*; as > input > -RMS-F-WLD, invalid wildcard operation > DCL> EDIT/EDT BLAH: > %EDT-F-OPENIN, error opening BLAH:[FELDMAN.FT.MENU].; as input > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > operation > DCL> > > AEF All right, the top-posting was only partly fixed. I missed the part where Fred quoted me from Big John's post. Oh well. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:43:08 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Cool Bananas! Message-ID: Hi Jean-François, > > http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-) > its only a technological > demonstration, not necessary a useful application): Won't stop these troglodytes; "Your color scheme is just awful" and "Nothin' you couldn't do with static pages anyway". I see you also picked up on their window-resizing fetish :-) You seem to be a man of few words JFP but if you have the time to answer a few questions I'd be grrateful: - . I'd like to think you work for HP (or were at least paid by VMS middle-management for the demo) but I'm guessing they're too busy stuffing their mates' pockets on other projects? . Where's the source? Is it available to the public? . Did you get someone in for the Flash or did you do it yourself. (If the later was it hard to pick up?) . How long did the ActionScript bit take? (What resources are at your disposal? Or are you just mega-talented :-) . When exactly did you start on this? What inspires you? Some *great* ideas in there :-) > The VMS part used WASD (so, http or https, VMS authentication, > throttling,...), and a few hundred lines of Python code. How many hundred lines of Flex/Actionscript? > > Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe > > ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no problem > > with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in the > > t2$examples directory. Look JFP, I am just happy that people are doing this stuff in a VMS context at all and don't want to get into scalibility, security, and functionality arguments over the underlying server architecture. If people see fit to use PHP then more power to them, likewise with ODBC/JDBC and other interpreters; it's a broad church. But just so that nobody misunderstands what I said in that quote, let me clarify: - Point 1. Flex does have reasonable native socket support (doesn't support OOB data or have a connect timeout value) and you can perfectly happily connect to a Tier3 Server via your SWF. Point 2. I suspect (without having conducted any surveys) that "most" people still want JavaScript control over their HTML-markup and Flex-charting integration. Yes, Flex and HTML/JavaScrip/Applets all on the one page! You have an Object tag for your SWF(s) and another for your Applet(s)! In this environment I see no point in limiting one's self to the Flex Socket interface when the perfectly good Java Socket interface is available - best tool for the job. Given Flash's JRE requirements, it probably just removes a layer of abstraction anyway? To this end, and as I've said before, I'm looking into the FABridge functionality and only using up enough of the html page needed to house the Flash stuff. HTML/JavaScript for what it's good at and Flash for the pretty bits. Now seeing as how I seem to suggest it here and all of a sudden it comes out there :-) how 'bout a PHP/FABridge/html/Javascript example with just one graph that I would gratefully copy :-) Actually, the FABridge examples are good enough, but the moved the charting stuff in with some IDE (FlexBuilder?) stuff and you have to download the world to do anything :-( and yes I just haven't got round to it. Once again, well done! Cheers Richard Maher "Jean-François Piéronne" wrote in message news:47aff5de$0$23610$426a74cc@news.free.fr... > Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > > > > > Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe > > ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no problem > > with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in the > > t2$examples directory. > > > > A recorded of a Flex <-> VMS demonstration application (need the Flash > plugin, but it's for a Flex demo anyway, its only a technological > demonstration, not necessary a useful application): > > http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm > > The VMS part used WASD (so, http or https, VMS authentication, > throttling,...), and a few hundred lines of Python code. > > > JFP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:00:22 +1030 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: Cool Bananas! Message-ID: <13r090rh45cradb@corp.supernews.com> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Jean-François, > >>http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm > > > That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well > done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-) JFP is a personal friend, and I know I'll also be dancing across a few toes here, but Europe and European IT, at least as seen from this bit of the Antipodes, does seem to have a better appreciation of VMS and what it might be able to leverage, than its own compatriots. >>its only a technological >>demonstration, not necessary a useful application): > > > Won't stop these troglodytes; "Your color scheme is just awful" and "Nothin' > you couldn't do with static pages anyway". I see you also picked up on their > window-resizing fetish :-) > > You seem to be a man of few words JFP but if you have the time to answer a > few questions I'd be grrateful: - > > . I'd like to think you work for HP (or were at least paid by VMS > middle-management for the demo) but I'm guessing they're too busy stuffing > their mates' pockets on other projects? > . Where's the source? Is it available to the public? > . Did you get someone in for the Flash or did you do it yourself. (If the > later was it hard to pick up?) > . How long did the ActionScript bit take? (What resources are at your > disposal? Or are you just mega-talented :-) > . When exactly did you start on this? What inspires you? Some *great* ideas > in there :-) > > >>The VMS part used WASD (so, http or https, VMS authentication, >>throttling,...), and a few hundred lines of Python code. > > > How many hundred lines of Flex/Actionscript? > > >>>Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see > > Adobe > >>>ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no > > problem > >>>with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in > > the > >>>t2$examples directory. > > > Look JFP, I am just happy that people are doing this stuff in a VMS context > at all and don't want to get into scalibility, security, and functionality > arguments over the underlying server architecture. If people see fit to use > PHP then more power to them, likewise with ODBC/JDBC and other interpreters; > it's a broad church. But just so that nobody misunderstands what I said in > that quote, let me clarify: - > > Point 1. Flex does have reasonable native socket support (doesn't support > OOB data or have a connect timeout value) and you can perfectly happily > connect to a Tier3 Server via your SWF. > > Point 2. I suspect (without having conducted any surveys) that "most" people > still want JavaScript control over their HTML-markup and Flex-charting > integration. Yes, Flex and HTML/JavaScrip/Applets all on the one page! You > have an Object tag for your SWF(s) and another for your Applet(s)! In this > environment I see no point in limiting one's self to the Flex Socket > interface when the perfectly good Java Socket interface is available - best > tool for the job. Given Flash's JRE requirements, it probably just removes a > layer of abstraction anyway? > > To this end, and as I've said before, I'm looking into the FABridge > functionality and only using up enough of the html page needed to house the > Flash stuff. HTML/JavaScript for what it's good at and Flash for the pretty > bits. Now seeing as how I seem to suggest it here and all of a sudden it > comes out there :-) how 'bout a PHP/FABridge/html/Javascript example with > just one graph that I would gratefully copy :-) Actually, the FABridge > examples are good enough, but the moved the charting stuff in with some IDE > (FlexBuilder?) stuff and you have to download the world to do anything :-( > and yes I just haven't got round to it. > > Once again, well done! > > Cheers Richard Maher > > "Jean-François Piéronne" wrote in message > news:47aff5de$0$23610$426a74cc@news.free.fr... > >>Richard Maher wrote: >> >>>Hi Mark, >>> >>> >>> >>>Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see > > Adobe > >>>ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no > > problem > >>>with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in > > the > >>>t2$examples directory. >>> >> >>A recorded of a Flex <-> VMS demonstration application (need the Flash >>plugin, but it's for a Flex demo anyway, its only a technological >>demonstration, not necessary a useful application): >> >>http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm >> >>The VMS part used WASD (so, http or https, VMS authentication, >>throttling,...), and a few hundred lines of Python code. >> >> >>JFP -- In childhood our credulity serves us well. It helps us to pack, with extraordinary rapidity, our skulls full of the wisdom of our parents and our ancestors. But if we don't grow out of it in the fullness of time, our ... nature makes us a sitting target for astrologers, mediums, gurus, evangelists, and quacks. We need to replace the automatic credulity of childhood with the constructive skepticism of adult science. [Richard Dawkins; source unattributed] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:12:38 +0100 From: "Gorazd Kikelj" Subject: Re: Cool Bananas! Message-ID: "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:fop5dh$lov$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Hi Jean-François, >> >> http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm > > That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well > done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-) > >> its only a technological >> demonstration, not necessary a useful application): > >> A recorded of a Flex <-> VMS demonstration application (need the Flash >> plugin, but it's for a Flex demo anyway, its only a technological >> demonstration, not necessary a useful application): >> Cool. This is realy cool demo. Best, Gorazd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:51:47 -0800 (PST) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: Cool Bananas! Message-ID: On Feb 11, 5:43=A0am, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi Jean-Fran=E7ois, > >http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm > > That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well > done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-) Very nice indeed > . I'd like to think you work for HP (or were at least paid by VMS > middle-management for the demo) but I'm guessing they're too busy stuffing= > their mates' pockets on other projects? How low can you go? And why would you try? Never mind, don't answer that. I do not know what the above slander actually means, but for me this cute remark is the straw that breaks the camels back. I'm sure you don't give a shit, and that's ok by me, but with that contributions you lost the last bit of respect I had for your work/writings. I may well be reading it all wrong, but even so, suspect I am not alone in doing so Did it ever occur to you that folks can just be 'nice' and 'trying to help' and 'having a good time' and actaully be really really really smart in a nice way? > Once again, well done! That does not even begin compensate the bitter, evil, remarks. Good luck buddy! Hein. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 14:27:13 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Cool Bananas! Message-ID: <47b05b40$0$15183$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , "Richard Maher" writes: >Hi Jean-François, >> >> http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm > >That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well >done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-) But when I hit F11 key as instructed, my windows disappear off the screen. JF, perhaps you can find a way to express this in non-M$ specific words? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:14:22 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= Subject: Re: Cool Bananas! Message-ID: <47b0745d$0$13661$426a34cc@news.free.fr> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "Richard Maher" writes: >> Hi Jean-François, >>> http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm >> That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well >> done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-) > > But when I hit F11 key as instructed, my windows disappear off the screen. > > JF, perhaps you can find a way to express this in non-M$ specific words? > > The demo should work everywhere Flash run, and I know it has successfully run on Windows, MAC-OS, Linux. F11 may not work (or work differently) on some browser, I don't know. F11 is just to display the demo full screen, it the key associate to this action in your favorite browser. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:12:51 +1030 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: Cool Bananas! Message-ID: <13r0ur95b8joac2@corp.supernews.com> Jean-François Piéronne wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article , "Richard Maher" >> writes: >> >>> Hi Jean-François, >>> >>>> http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm >>> >>> That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well >>> done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-) >> >> >> But when I hit F11 key as instructed, my windows disappear off the >> screen. >> >> JF, perhaps you can find a way to express this in non-M$ specific words? >> >> > > The demo should work everywhere Flash run, and I know it has > successfully run on Windows, MAC-OS, Linux. You can add FreeBSD + Firefox + Gnash. > F11 may not work (or work differently) on some browser, I don't know. > > F11 is just to display the demo full screen, it the key associate to > this action in your favorite browser. -- My point is not that religion itself is the motivation for wars, murders and terrorist attacks, but that religion is the principal label, and the most dangerous one, by which a "they" as opposed to a "we" can be identified at all. [Richard Dawkins; The Devil's Chaplain] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:21:55 -0800 (PST) From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Message-ID: <48a605e7-922a-4869-9d82-59c81b5ee2b4@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On 8 Feb, 00:29, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <05fe2120-bdd5-465a-8ec7-3bfacf732...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.= com>, Rich Jordan writes: > > > > > > >Been too darn busy to renew, finally had time today; my membership > >expired 1/31 (which is interesting in itself because my membership > >used to run through June 30th; I'm not sure when the schedule > >changed). > > >So I can't log on to the site; ok. =A0Go to membership, click renewal, > >get a choice of online or printable PDF, and a note that individual > >membership is $50/year. > > >The PDF says $50. =A0The 'online' wants $90 for an individual > >membership. > > >What gives? =A0"Convenience" fee like the wretched state of Ill Annoy > >charges if you dare renew vehicle registration online instead of > >standing in line or mailing it in (although even Ill Annoy can only > >dream of charging 80% over the base fee... at least so far)? =A0Covering > >the cost of providing this fine storefront service? =A0Covering the cost > >of this new merged super-duper-user-group an email went out about > >today? > > >I'll go with the PDF thanks. =A0All I use DECUS... er Encompass for any > >more is the hobbyist licenses and very occasional access to the > >libraries, and while I like to support it for that, $90 is more than a > >bit much... it'll be an associate membership for me if it comes to > >that. =A0Its not like work pays for this stuff. > > DECUS membership used to be free. =A0Then, as the value eroded, they start= ed > a sustaining membership program for a fee. =A0IIRC, it promised the benefi= t > of a membership directory (which I still have stashed somewhere) that was > *supposed* to have the names of all the sustaining members. =A0My name in = it > was elided so I never paid the sustaining membership again. =A0Encompass? = =A0I > have no idea what it provides for me other than a membership ID to enroll > in an over-priced content free symposium once a year. =A0I have only been = to > one Encompass symposium since the demise of DECUS and that was only to be > a trade show booth bunny -- you didn't miss anything, I'm not that cute! > > However, it if costs you $90 to get a membership to keep the hobbyist lic-= > ence scheme valid I suppose that isn't too bad. =A0It's only a quarter a d= ay. > Nicotineholics burn that up everytime they light up. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)= COM > > =A0 "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Erm, not entirely correct. DECUS was run by Digital and, AFAIK, the staff running the user group and NUGs were Digital employees. That was certainly the case in the UK. When Compaq bought Digital, many staff took the package and left the company. Compaq didn't fund replacement staff so the user groups that were DECUS had to pay their own way, often without assistance from Compaq or, now, HP. That's as true of ITUG as it is of DECUS/ Encompass/Interex/HPUG. In the UK, we have to fund admin staff and running costs from membership and sponsorship. We make very little surplus each year, but we can't run at a loss. Hope that makes it clearer. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:50:08 -0800 (PST) From: Galen Subject: Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Message-ID: I'm located in the USA. I just renewed my account on ENCOMPASSERVE and no price at all was mentioned. Are you sure you were renewing your ENCOMPASSERVE login and not your ENCOMPASS membership? Maybe they aren't the same thing? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:20:45 -0800 (PST) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Message-ID: <126be512-d6d2-416a-854d-0a27f9872962@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Feb 11, 8:50 am, Galen wrote: > I'm located in the USA. I just renewed my account on ENCOMPASSERVE and > no price at all was mentioned. > > Are you sure you were renewing your ENCOMPASSERVE login and not your > ENCOMPASS membership? Maybe they aren't the same thing? Galen, I was going to renew my paying membership to Encompass; that would also have re-instated my Encompasserve login. There is also a 'free' membership level, but you have to renew just the same or your Encompasserve account gets turned off. The problem is that the paid renewal shows inconsistent pricing information. The info page and the print-and-mail PDF form show $50, but the online renewal form says $90. I'm OK with supporting Encompass with a paid membership, but this is something I have to buy myself; the company doesn't pay for this and $90 is too much with all the other expenses I've got going right now. A $40 convenience fee to use online service is just nuts... (For reference the vile State of Ill Annoy charges a "convenience fee" if you use online payment for vehicle registration and other services; one of the many little bites, the mordida, they take from residents here under any and all pretexts) I'm not suggesting Encompass is doing that BTW ;) Just had to pay my vehicle registration and the state mordida was fresh on my mind... I sent in the PDF with a check; we'll see what happens. Rich ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:12:05 -0800 (PST) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Message-ID: <6f58b7b2-f56e-4b4b-9b39-9c7b4bf885d2@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Feb 7, 5:56 pm, Rich Jordan wrote: > Been too darn busy to renew, finally had time today; my membership > expired 1/31 (which is interesting in itself because my membership > used to run through June 30th; I'm not sure when the schedule > changed). > > So I can't log on to the site; ok. Go to membership, click renewal, > get a choice of online or printable PDF, and a note that individual > membership is $50/year. > > The PDF says $50. The 'online' wants $90 for an individual > membership. > > What gives? "Convenience" fee like the wretched state of Ill Annoy > charges if you dare renew vehicle registration online instead of > standing in line or mailing it in (although even Ill Annoy can only > dream of charging 80% over the base fee... at least so far)? Covering > the cost of providing this fine storefront service? Covering the cost > of this new merged super-duper-user-group an email went out about > today? > > I'll go with the PDF thanks. All I use DECUS... er Encompass for any > more is the hobbyist licenses and very occasional access to the > libraries, and while I like to support it for that, $90 is more than a > bit much... it'll be an associate membership for me if it comes to > that. Its not like work pays for this stuff. > > Rich FYI, I was just contacted by Encompass; they were very nice considering my venting here ;). The online renewal price was incorrect and will be fixed. $50 is the correct annual price, and they seemed pleased I had renewed. Rich ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:30:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jerry Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: On Feb 11, 12:34=A0am, Tad Winters wrote: > A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and > support applications, which I would port first. =A0I'd like to start down > the correct road first. =A0The languages which I first thought would meet > the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. =A0 I've used FORTRAN, BASIC and Pascal in short term projects only. I can't say much about them. After being a COBOL and C programmer for years, I worked a few years with DIBOL/DBL, so I can only comment on those languages. I used to joke that DIBOL was a language with all the power of COBOL with the ease of use of C. For straight forward business applications COBOL is probably the easiest to learn and maintain. You can use copylibs instead of includes. COBOL does have its limitations compared to C but it pretty much can do anything that DIBOL can do. > Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a show > stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for Synergy DBL > alone. =2E.. > Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to convert. > I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't hold me to > it. On the other hand, from a business view, this doesn't make sense. The time and effort it would take to rewrite 300K lines of DIBOL to another language makes $20K look like small stuff. Just to let you know, for close to 10 years, I've been doing budget estimates and project management solely on migration work. $20K is a mere fraction of the cost of this type of migration. You've got some tough choices ahead. Good luck, though. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:37:38 -0500 From: Bob Willard Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: Tad Winters wrote: >>>They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. >>>The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the >>>users and probably causes some customers to consider other >>>suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any >>>appreciable improvement. >>> >>>I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since >>>DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be >>>Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is >>>a show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for >>>Synergy DBL alone. >>> >>>I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a >>>huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop >>>something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator >>>running on bare metal.) > > And one more thing. This is a VAX 4000-600A. 1.Try a faster VAX 2.Try more RAM 3.Try a SMP VAX and/or a cluster 4.Try faster storage, esp. RAID0 and/or 15K RPM SCSI HDs I suspect that a concurrent batch DIBOL workload is I/O intensive, rather than CPU intensive, so souping up the storage would be my first priority. But, measuring the workload attributes to find the bottleneck(s) would be smarter than relying on my long-distance crystal ball. Unless the VAX 4000 is maxed out, adding RAM is the simplest and cheapest hardware improvement you can make. Regardless of the long-term solution you pursue, I'd add RAM for short-term relief if possible. You can buy a hell of a lot of second-hand VAXen for less than the cost of a team of porters, esp. porters with VMS and DIBOL creds. -- Cheers, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:19:14 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47B03D42.6070204@comcast.net> Tad Winters wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in > news:47AFC674.1030105@comcast.net: > > >>Tad Winters wrote: >> >>>Tad Winters wrote in >>>news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: >>> >>>Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to >>>150 concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 >>>in the morning, when many reports are being run in batch in >>>addition to interactive use. >> >>Is there some reason why some of these reports couldn't be run >>overnight instead of from 8 AM to 10 AM?? >> > > > I believe these vary from day to day. We're talking about reports having > to do with Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, General Ledger and > their very customized Distribution Management. If they planned ahead, > they could request the reports be run overnight, but this is a group of > order takers and warehouse people. Most of their work is reaction to > orders being placed. The few who could help by planning are those who > work the accounting applications and those who do purchasing. > This is certainly worth a try. > Thanks. If some of these reports are periodic; e.g. every day, every Friday, etc, they could be handled as self submitting batch jobs. You might benefit from a "clever" batch scheduler such as JAMS. Using JAMS you can say "every Friday except holidays" and the job will be run that way. Another possible solution is to buy another VAX 4000-600 and cluster the two. You could have one grinding out reports while the other handled order taking, accounts receivable, etc. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 13:09:15 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <61avnrF1u8k6sU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > > Pascal... Clean language, but how many programmers are available out > there? At least one. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 13:12:46 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <61avueF1u8k6sU2@mid.individual.net> In article <47AFC674.1030105@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Tad Winters wrote: >> Tad Winters wrote in >> news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: >> >> >>>Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over >>>programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. >>> >>>I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some >>>custom software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. >>>The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL >>>"include" files. >>> >>>They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. >>>The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the >>>users and probably causes some customers to consider other >>>suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any >>>appreciable improvement. >>> >>>I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since >>>DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be >>>Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a >>>show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for >>>Synergy DBL alone. >>> >>>I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a >>>huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop >>>something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator >>>running on bare metal.) >>> >>>Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in >>>moving code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what >>>language would be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: >>>A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. >>>The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, >>>relative and sequential files are used.) >>>Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they >>>would with DIBOL. >>>The language would need to support "include" files. >>> >>>Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to >>>convert. I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't >>>hold me to it. >>> >>>The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported >>>to the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I >>>continued to generate correct code. >>> >>>A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and >>>support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start >>>down the correct road first. The languages which I first thought >>>would meet the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. >>>This doesn't strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to >>>choose a language which is also supported on Itanium. >>> >>>I await your wisdom. >>> >> >> >> Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to 150 >> concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 in the >> morning, when many reports are being run in batch in addition to >> interactive use. > > Is there some reason why some of these reports couldn't be run overnight > instead of from 8 AM to 10 AM?? That was the first thing that came to my mind, too. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 13:14:23 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <61b01fF1u8k6sU3@mid.individual.net> In article , Tad Winters writes: > Tad Winters wrote in > news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: > >> Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over >> programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. >> >> I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some >> custom software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. >> The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL >> "include" files. >> >> They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. >> The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the >> users and probably causes some customers to consider other >> suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any >> appreciable improvement. >> >> I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since >> DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be >> Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a >> show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for >> Synergy DBL alone. >> >> I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a >> huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop >> something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator >> running on bare metal.) >> >> Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in >> moving code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what >> language would be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: >> A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. >> The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, >> relative and sequential files are used.) >> Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they >> would with DIBOL. >> The language would need to support "include" files. >> >> Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to >> convert. I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't >> hold me to it. >> >> The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported >> to the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I >> continued to generate correct code. >> >> A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and >> support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start >> down the correct road first. The languages which I first thought >> would meet the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. >> This doesn't strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to >> choose a language which is also supported on Itanium. >> >> I await your wisdom. >> > > Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to 150 > concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 in the > morning, when many reports are being run in batch in addition to > interactive use. There are 120 detached processes performing (or waiting > to perform) specific application functions. The system is also running > MultiNet V4.4. I'd love to get this all upgraded, but there's no way > that would fly without guaranteed significant performance improvement. > If upgrading is the way to go, then it seems like it would be best to > make as much a jump as possible. > Thanks. And I just watched two lightly used, perfectly functional VAX 7000's get hauled to the dump. You could have had them for the cost of a rental truck. :-( bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 13:19:33 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <61b0b5F1u8k6sU4@mid.individual.net> In article <47B03D42.6070204@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Tad Winters wrote: >> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in >> news:47AFC674.1030105@comcast.net: >> >> >>>Tad Winters wrote: >>> >>>>Tad Winters wrote in >>>>news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: >>>> >>>>Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to >>>>150 concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 >>>>in the morning, when many reports are being run in batch in >>>>addition to interactive use. >>> >>>Is there some reason why some of these reports couldn't be run >>>overnight instead of from 8 AM to 10 AM?? >>> >> >> >> I believe these vary from day to day. We're talking about reports having >> to do with Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, General Ledger and >> their very customized Distribution Management. If they planned ahead, >> they could request the reports be run overnight, but this is a group of >> order takers and warehouse people. Most of their work is reaction to >> orders being placed. The few who could help by planning are those who >> work the accounting applications and those who do purchasing. >> This is certainly worth a try. >> Thanks. > > If some of these reports are periodic; e.g. every day, every Friday, > etc, they could be handled as self submitting batch jobs. You might > benefit from a "clever" batch scheduler such as JAMS. Using JAMS you > can say "every Friday except holidays" and the job will be run that way. > > Another possible solution is to buy another VAX 4000-600 and cluster the > two. You could have one grinding out reports while the other handled > order taking, accounts receivable, etc. Considering the stability of the operation and the desire to minimize costs, this seems like the best suggestion yet. I would go one further and suggest at least two more VAX 4000-600's for even better performance and eliminating the chance that you would drop back to just the one system shopuild anything go wrong. I would imagine VAX 4000 are still available on the cheap. I have three and have never paid for any of them. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:02:07 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47B0555F.3060206@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <47AFC674.1030105@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>Tad Winters wrote: >> >>>Tad Winters wrote in >>>news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over >>>>programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. >>>> >>>>I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some >>>>custom software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. >>>>The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL >>>>"include" files. >>>> >>>>They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. >>>>The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the >>>>users and probably causes some customers to consider other >>>>suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any >>>>appreciable improvement. >>>> >>>>I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since >>>>DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be >>>>Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a >>>>show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for >>>>Synergy DBL alone. >>>> >>>>I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a >>>>huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop >>>>something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator >>>>running on bare metal.) >>>> >>>>Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in >>>>moving code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what >>>>language would be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: >>>>A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. >>>>The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, >>>>relative and sequential files are used.) >>>>Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they >>>>would with DIBOL. >>>>The language would need to support "include" files. >>>> >>>>Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to >>>>convert. I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't >>>>hold me to it. >>>> >>>>The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported >>>>to the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I >>>>continued to generate correct code. >>>> >>>>A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and >>>>support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start >>>>down the correct road first. The languages which I first thought >>>>would meet the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. >>>>This doesn't strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to >>>>choose a language which is also supported on Itanium. >>>> >>>>I await your wisdom. >>>> >>> >>> >>>Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to 150 >>>concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 in the >>>morning, when many reports are being run in batch in addition to >>>interactive use. >> >>Is there some reason why some of these reports couldn't be run overnight >>instead of from 8 AM to 10 AM?? > > > That was the first thing that came to my mind, too. :-) > > bill > Yeah! It used to be known as "Performance Management". A few of us old fogies still remember! Instead of paying the hardware and licensing costs for a faster machine, work the old one harder! There's no point in letting it loaf from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:36:54 -0800 (PST) From: FrankS Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: On Feb 10, 6:34=A0pm, Tad Winters wrote: > I await your wisdom. a) The cheapest solution may be to upgrade from a 4000-600A to either a -700A or -705A. Both of those -7xxA systems were faster than the -600A, yet had the same license rating. You should be able to find them at various used system resellers. Make sure you max out the memory if you go that route. Similarly, upgrade the HSD30 to an HSD50. You didn't mention what disk cabinet the HSD30 is in. If it's an RA450 then I believe the HSD50 will just slide in. That will give you 6 SCSI channels instead of 3 so you can spread the I/O a bit, and the controller itself is faster. You would also want to max out the cache on the HSD (128mb, if I remember correctly). b) Clustering the 4000-600A with another VAX probably isn't a good solution because you'd have to find and buy VAXcluster licenses. HP may still sell them, but the cost for two nodes may be more than the Synergy license. c) For an Alpha solution you'd have to get the VMS Base license, an unlimited user license, and any other licenses that are on the VAX that need to be transferred. Because of HP's licensing policies you can only get the Base license from an HP authorized reseller and it must be sold with the Alpha system. Don't forget that you'd need a license for whichever language compiler you decide to use. (The assumption is that you will be looking for valid licenses and not using other methods to get VMS licenses onto the Alpha.) While you can get DSSI for an Alpha system you'd probably want to switch to fiber. That introduces other costs of moving the data from the HSD array to an HSG array. The HSG80 controllers and cabinets are cheap enough on eBay or other sources, and even disk drives in the blue Storageworks caddies are fairly inexpensive. But it all adds up. d) The biggest cost factor as others have pointed out is your time in converting the applications from DIBOL to any other language. You might be able to use TPU to create an automated solution, but I'm not familiar enough with DIBOL syntax to know how feasible that would be. Still, testing is going to add up in billable hours, unless you're doing this pro-bono. e) If you do decide to go the migration route then consider Integrity. From what I can remember the lowest priced Integrity with licenses, media, and cabinetry lists at $5k. HP will likely provide discounts on trade-up licenses from the VAX which will lower that cost somewhat. You can try VESTing the DIBOL compiler to Alpha, then AEST it to Integrity. If it works you've saved yourself a bundle on migration costs. Otherwise the work involved in translating the DIBOL to another language is not going to change whether you're moving to Alpha or Integrity. f) The performance gains to be had when going from a VAX 4000-600A + DSSI to a DS10L (or practically any Alpha) + fiber are significant. Likewise for a switch to Integrity. It would be well worth the $20k investment, in my opinion, to stick with the DIBOL environment. You might not put as much money into your own pocket because the migration effort isn't as complicated as rewriting to another language, but your customer would be a lot happier. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 15:05:02 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <61b6guF1tdl1qU1@mid.individual.net> In article , FrankS writes: > On Feb 10, 6:34 pm, Tad Winters > wrote: >> I await your wisdom. > > You can try VESTing the DIBOL compiler to Alpha, then AEST it to > Integrity. I have a question regarding this scheme that just occured to me. If you have old applications that originated on a VAX and have been VESTed to Alpha (and then, perhaps, AESTed to Itanium) does this not leave you stuck keeping, maintaining and paying licensing for a VAX as well in the event problems occur with the program or some form of upgrade needs to be made to the application? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:10:52 GMT From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <0AZrj.7918$0o7.2215@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net> Tad Winters wrote: > Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over > programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. > > I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some custom > software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. The custom > forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL "include" files. > > They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. The > system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the users > and probably causes some customers to consider other suppliers. The > system has been tuned many times, without any appreciable improvement. > > I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since > DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be Synergy > DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a show > stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for Synergy DBL > alone. > > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) > > Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in moving > code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what language would > be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: > A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. > The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, > relative and sequential files are used.) > Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they would > with DIBOL. > The language would need to support "include" files. > > Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to convert. > I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't hold me to > it. > > The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported to > the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I > continued to generate correct code. > > A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and > support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start down > the correct road first. The languages which I first thought would meet > the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. This doesn't > strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to choose a > language which is also supported on Itanium. > > I await your wisdom. Basic or Cobol would be my choice, in that order. We have done a number of conversions from other systems to OpenVMS as well as upgrades. One approach that has been successful on a couple of those is to write code converters that get 90 to 95% of the standard code converted and then tackle the rest by hand. If you would like to discuss this in more detail, including us possibly helping you in the conversion, please call me at (949) 650-0526. Jeff Coffield www.digitalsynergyinc.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:02:11 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in news:61b01fF1u8k6sU3@mid.individual.net: [..snip..] > > And I just watched two lightly used, perfectly functional VAX 7000's > get hauled to the dump. You could have had them for the cost of a > rental truck. :-( > > bill > Pennsylvania to Oregon would have been quite the trip. Their current system (actually 2, with 1 acting as their stand-by) is below grade (like their entire operation) in a room about 10' by 10', 3 line printers, built-in cabinets on one wall and boxes of paper lining another wall. I can't say I've seen a VAX 7000 in person, but I suspect there would have been space, cooling and power issues to address. Just 2 days ago, the most IT person in that company asked me about putting what they have in racks, since a water main had broken just a block away (down hill) in the last week, which caused flooding for the adjacent businesses. Another interesting fact is the "computer room" is carpetted. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 17:10:06 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <61bdreF1ufij8U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Tad Winters writes: > billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in > news:61b01fF1u8k6sU3@mid.individual.net: > > [..snip..] >> >> And I just watched two lightly used, perfectly functional VAX 7000's >> get hauled to the dump. You could have had them for the cost of a >> rental truck. :-( >> >> bill >> > > Pennsylvania to Oregon would have been quite the trip. True, but a real bargain once oyu discount what a VAX 7000 actually costs. > Their current > system (actually 2, with 1 acting as their stand-by) is below grade (like > their entire operation) in a room about 10' by 10', 3 line printers, > built-in cabinets on one wall and boxes of paper lining another wall. I've worked for people like that. Sometimes the best idea is to just wash your hands and walk away. (It took 3 major data lossdes here before they finally agreed we should have a tape drive fast enough and with the capacity to do real regular backups.) > I > can't say I've seen a VAX 7000 in person, but I suspect there would have > been space, cooling and power issues to address. Very likely. :-) Think of the size of a walk-in fridge. Only hotter. > Just 2 days ago, the most IT person in that company asked me about > putting what they have in racks, since a water main had broken just a > block away (down hill) in the last week, which caused flooding for the > adjacent businesses. Dependingon how far below grade that might not help much. :-) > Another interesting fact is the "computer room" is carpetted. That comes as no surprise as I have seen companies that sell raised floor tiles that are carpet. As long as it is anti-static and the dust get's vacuumed out of it regularly not really a problem. But, I would imagine it is merely bargain-basement carpet from the local outlet store. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:13:13 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47B08229.50900@comcast.net> Tad Winters wrote: > billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in > news:61b01fF1u8k6sU3@mid.individual.net: > > [..snip..] > >>And I just watched two lightly used, perfectly functional VAX 7000's >>get hauled to the dump. You could have had them for the cost of a >>rental truck. :-( >> >>bill >> > > > Pennsylvania to Oregon would have been quite the trip. Their current > system (actually 2, with 1 acting as their stand-by) is below grade (like > Another interesting fact is the "computer room" is carpetted. Unusual but by no means impossible. You can buy "anti-static" carpet for such purposes. You can even buy raised floor panels with carpet topping. I don't recall ever having seen such panels or a carpeted computer room but at least one company tried to sell me such a thing. I don't even want to think about keeping a carpeted computer room clean! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:22:37 -0800 (PST) From: FrankS Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <3f5126fa-c1ed-435d-a4f8-abbaec939ead@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Feb 11, 10:05=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > I have a question regarding this scheme that just occured to me. > If you have old applications that originated on a VAX and have > been VESTed to Alpha (and then, perhaps, AESTed to Itanium) does > this not leave you stuck keeping, maintaining and paying licensing > for a VAX as well in the event problems occur with the program or > some form of upgrade needs to be made to the application? Honestly, after I posted that I realized a similar issue: the VAX license needed to run the DIBOL compiler might not be loadable on either Alpha or Integrity OpenVMS. Worth trying, though. Certainly, using VEST/AEST on any application for which you don't have the source code leaves you stuck at the version you're running, as far as upgrades. In the case of the DIBOL compiler, though, I don't think that's a concern. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:16:33 +0100 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47b0910e$0$25487$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 11-2-2008 0:34 Tad Winters wrote... > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) Having read up on this thread, an weighing the possible cost and risk of all different kinds of ports/migrations, I seriously think you are robbing your customer of the best possible solution: CHARON-VAX. Mind you, although my company resells CHARON-VAX products, I will not benefit from this particular deal, or any deal in your geography. I have implemented this product (and CHARON-AXP) many times in heavy production environments, and it (and Windows alongside it) has never failed me (or my customers). Windows is really only used in the installation and program load stages. When it's running, it's in the processor L2 cache, with Windows running beside in another processor. Windows *is* remarkably stable when it's not used. Services may be stopped and disabled, and especially when you don't connect the Windows instance to any network, it will run for months/quarters/years without intervention. No license issues, instant spectacular performance improvement, only disadvantage: up and running in the time it takes to do a backup/restore. Not free though, but well within your apparent budget. So, set religion aside, and do what's best for your customer. -- Wilm Boerhout | Zwolle, | - 'My memory's fine!' The Netherlands | - 'But you keep forgetting your mistakes!' remove OLD PAINT to reply | - 'Exactly!' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:40:36 -0500 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <01e501c86cdd$9846fb20$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP> >... > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) >... OK, I am a CHARON-VAX reseller, but I need to point out that CHARON-VAX and CHARON-AXP on Windows are very stable. I have many customers who are true VMS bigots running CHARON-VAX and CHARON-AXP and they are happy that the boxes are as stable or even more stable than the old hardware. You can run CHARON as an appliance and turn off everything that Windows does not need, even turn off the IP stack so Windows can not talk to anything on the Ethernet. If Windows is not allowed to see the network then it is extremely stable. Contact your nearest CHARON-VAX reseller (or me if you there is nobody in driving distance of your customer, I usually only sell to customers in Canada just because of the issues dealing across a border but I would be happy to help) and give CHARON-VAX a try. In the end you will get a faster CPU, faster memory and faster disk I/O without any changes except maybe some physical disk names. I have customers who went from VAX 4000 machines to CHARON-VAX and had batch jobs run in minutes rather than hours. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial Hardware ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:05:13 -0800 (PST) From: 0705474830@momail.se Subject: Federal Podcasts - Federal Court of Justice Message-ID: <85f7d1cf-c5fd-441c-9df4-d26c0310a50f@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com> The Hollywood NetBook - Federal Podcasts 'Satisfactorily on suggestions for new entries and prominent preferences and pointing out performances that I have previously overlooked. All of these have duly been taken into account and, together with the revised and updated entries, plus the new additions which take the book right up to 2008/09, make Red Carpet Ready, virtually a new book. It has been a delight to work on because I have been opperating in what is mostly unexplored territory and dealing with aspects of literature reference that have not been touched upon previously.' How can you reference a great literature without one...? Net book: http://vibe1.redcarpet1.hop.clickbank.net/?tid=3DMASTER Mr Roger K. Olsson Giuen Holding Ltd. des Cinemas Conf=E9deration des Produteurs de Programme Estates - Five Crown note: California 2008-02-02 Providing Employee Benefits With the expectation of wages and salaries, employee benefits are the primary tools by which employers attract and retain qualified personnel for their organizations. Most employers voluntarily provide a variety of benefits packages. Resons for providing such benefits range from a desire to be competitive in the relevant labor market to a genuine concern for their employee's welfare. Vacation, holidays, sick leave, medicine, dental and vision coverage, and retirement benefits are not required by law. If such benefits are offered, the employer may choose to pay all, part or none of the costs. Once the benefits are offered, however, law regulates how the employer must apply them. The following highlights some of the key issues of each benefit. Manufacturing Products - Permits A company seeking to establish a manufacturing facility in California will need to obtain the appropriate government permits for the type and location of the business. A very handy website that provides business with general information on permits and other requirements of California agencies at all levels of government is the CalGold website: http://www.calgold.ca.gov. Wed, 2005-07-06 08:47 -- dcornwall Podcasting is a way to deliver audio content to portable players. Despite the "Pod" in the name, you do not need an iPod to listen to the downloaded files. An increasing number of governments and elected officials are finding podcasting a useful channel to inform their citizens. While not endorsing podcasts as the ultimate channel of government information (Do you want to hear the statistical abstract podcast?), FGI wishes to commend the governments and elected officials below for their innovation in communication. If you know of a government podcast not listed here, please send the URL where the podcast can be found to dnlcornwal AT alaska.net. If a state or federal entity has an one-stop podcast listing, only that page will be listed. Otherwise we will list all podcasts for that entity separately. Federal Podcasts - Federal Court of Justice USA.gov Federal Podcasts listing - Official listing of federal podcasts by subject. Elected Officials President's Weekly Radio Address House House Democrats Podcast Feed (XML) House Republican podcast feed (XML) Committee on Government Reform - Democrats Senate Senator Barack Obama's weekly podcast Federal Agencies Agriculture Economic Research Service Podcast - Audio items on a number of agricultural economic topics. Consumer Product Safety Commission Weekly Recall Review - 3-5 minute "audio recording summarizing recalls and other product safety news" Department of Defense Air Force: Around the Air Force podcast Edwards Air Force Base Podcasts NORAD Podcasts Army Army Racing Podcast - Join the US Army as they race the NASCAR circuit. RSS Feed Navy Podcasts - Service wide podcast portal. Features Navy/Marine Corps Radio News - A two-minute recap of current events for and about The U.S. Navy and the U.S. Marine Corps. Pentagon Channel Podcasts - Daily newscasts from America's military. Census Bureau Al D=EDa: Programa radial producido por la oficina del Censo - XML/ Podcast Feed Profile America, a daily feature from the Census Bureau - XML/Podcast Feed Energy Oak Ridge National Laboratory Podcast Health and Human Human Services Aids.gov Podcast - Broadcast since February 2007, mix of news and discussions about AIDS. Daily HealthBeat Tip - "Launched on July 11, 2005, this service provides health promotion and disease prevention tips 5 days a week in audio and text formats." Site encourages broadcasters to use tips with attribution. Probably good for podcasters. Interior CoreCast from US Geological Survey - Earth Science oriented podcasts from 5 to 20 minutes in length. NASA Podcasting Page - Links to several audio AND video podcasts of education and science programs at NASA. National Archives Presidential Libraries Uncovered Podcast - From the website, "Each month, we broadcast historical clips from the Libraries' collection, ranging from serious policy discussions to conversations with family members. Listen to the voices of Presidents Hoover, Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, and Clinton. We'll add a new podcast often." A feed is also available. National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Physics Laboratory. - These MP4 podcasts contain an audio recording of the seminars, plus copies of the slides used by the speakers, synchronized approximately with the audio track. Currently one must subscribe to this podcast through the Apple iTunes store using keyword NIST. National Library of Medicine - MedlinePlus: NLM's Director's Comments - Weekly highlights of What's New in MedlinePlus.gov are narrated by the U.S. National Library of Medicine's Director. NOAA (National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration) Podcasts National Weather Service Podcast Forecasts for southern New Mexico and far west Texas Office of National Drug Control policy - Brief stories relating to drug abuse and control efforts. SAMHSA Radio Newsline Podcast - 60-90 second public affairs reports and substance abuse news segments. State Department International Information Programs - Speeches from Secretary of State and other officials. Rewards for Justice podcast feed - Daily roundup of rewards being offered for information regarding international terrorists. (XML) Smithsonian Institution Podcast Portal- Variety of audio and video podcasts on arts, science, history and more. Voice of America - Portal page offering a variety of news and culture programs. Offers a "Special English" news podcast which uses a limited vocabulary of 1,500 words. Broadcasters read at a slower pace than standard English. District of Columbia Podcasts Mayor's Weekly Press Conferences Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency - Brief video programs for the public on crime, criminal offenders and the criminal justice system. Some episodes in Spanish. State Podcasts Arkansas Gov Beebe's Radio Messages Podcast California Governor's Weekly Address - Intro page provides detailed instructions on using podcast software. Assemblyman (State House) Kevin McCarthy Assemblyman (State House) Russ Bogh Local Governments City of Gardena Podcasts County of San Diego Department of Environmental Health, Recreational Water Program Water Quality Podcast Report Connecticut DMV Podcasts Page - XML Feed Delaware State of Delaware Podcast Feeds - Includes podcasts on history and saving energy. Florida Environmental Health Preparedness Podcast by Division of Environmental Health Preparedness Local Governments City of South Daytona, Florida City Council Meetings Podcast Georgia Georgia Senate Podcasts Indiana Indiana Department of Education Podcasts Illinois Governor Podcasts Kansas Department of Education Podcasts Kentucky Podcast Portal - Includes feeds for Governor and General Assembly. Massachusetts Governor's Podcasts - Podcast Feed (XML) Mass Moments - History minute podcasts supported by the Massachusetts Foundation for the Humanities. Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm's Weekly Radio Address - Podcast Feed (XML) Local Governments City of Warren Audio Podcasts Oakland County, Michigan Government News and Information Podcast Minnesota Governor Pawlenty's Podcasts State House Standing Committee Podcasts Minnesota House Members - Majority of house members podcast. See Rep Bruce Anderson for example. Mississippi MS Arts Commission's MS Arts Hour - "The show features interviews with Mississippi artists, musicians, craftspeople, and others involved in arts and culture from around the state." Missouri Governor Podcasts - Subscribe via iTunes Nebraska Nebraska Library Commission Talking Book and Braille Service Interchange podcast Podcasting Across Nebraska - Not a podcast itself but a state program aimed at encouraging local government podcasts. Local Lincoln Board of Education podcasts South Sioux City Cardinal Cast . Can also subscribe via iTunes Nevada Local Governments Yucca Mountain Podcasts from Clark County Gov't New York Local Governments New York Police Department Daily News - Five to ten minute segments on traffic closures, interviews of NYPD personnel, and other news about the NYPD. Long Island Power Authority North Carolina Local Governments Guilford County Sherrif's Beat Podcasts Ohio OH DNR Ohio Outdoor Notebook Radio Spots - Minute podcasts designed to be used in radio shows. Oregon Senate Republican Leader Podcast South Carolina South Carolina Educational Television Commission ETV Podcasts - Mix of NPR feeds with locally produced, SC focused programs. Tennessee Governor Bredesen's Podcast Local Governments Memphis City Schools Podcasts - includes podcasts on world languages, arts and a "out of print" podcast. Texas Attorney General Podcasts TxDOT-Tyler District Podcast Utah Governor's Office of Economic Development Virginia Governor Podcasts Washington House Democrats Senate Democrats Senate Republicans Wisconsin Wisconsin Legislative Reference Bureau (LRB) Podcasts - Mostly summaries of LRB publications on various public policy issues or elements of the Wisconsin constitution. All of the podcasts are 5-7 minutes. The Legislative Reference Bureau is the first WI agency to produce podcasts. http://freegovinfo.info/node/174 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:21:10 -0500 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: IA64 VMS installation DVD creation. Message-ID: Last time I checked, we had decided to provide a means to do it for the next release for people who implement interesting one-off standalone boots. Generally speaking we didn't really "support" this on Alpha - it just happened that it was so trivial that anyone could figure out how to do it. "Jeremy Begg" wrote in message news:47AFBFD7.2090003@vsm.com.au... > Hello Fred, > >> When BACKUP sees the file GPT.SYS (and SYS$EFI.SYS) it knows that the >> volume is a bootable Integrity disk. When you restore the backup it will >> call SETBOOT to create valid GPT.SYS boot information. >> >> So yes, a system disk can be backed up and restored and will be bootable >> (note that you will need to update any saved boot entry data to allow it >> to be automatically booted from the EFI menu). >> >> In fact, you should be able to restore a installation DVD to a disk and >> it should work. >> >> What you can't do is *reliably* create a bootable DVD without knowing the >> magic needed to create the El Torito boot information. We are looking at >> providing a way for a customer to do this for the handful of legitimate >> uses for it. > > Thanks for that explanation, which makes a lot of sense and explains why > my recent efforts to build a bootable DVD failed. > > FWIW, the reason I want to do this is to create a "standaone backup" DVD. > This is essentially a copy of the VMS distribution disc, set up so that > instead of displaying an installation menu, it runs a command procedure to > backup (and optionally restore) all the system's hard disks. I've > provided a similar disc to some of my VMS support customers so they can > backup and/or defragment their Alpha systems. > > Regards, > > Jeremy Begg > (replace nospam by jeremy to reply) > > >> wrote in message >> news:6bfa964c-4cc5-4409-b1c4-57d37db909f1@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com... >> On 13 Jan, 19:22, "P. Sture" wrote: >> >>>In article <1arij.34009$Ux2.964@attbi_s22>, >>>"John E. Malmberg" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>P. Sture wrote: >>> >>>>>If we look at other operating systems, you can download various Linux >>>>>and Unix variants and Solaris for PC systems. >>> >>>>>However, you cannot do that (except as an early adoptor perhaps) for >>>>>Windows, OS X and probably quite a few others. In this regard VMS is >>>>>the >>>>>same. The only times I have acquired an early release of VMS were via a >>>>>non-official looking tape from the local DEC/Compaq/HP office. >>> >>>>If you have the appropriate level MSDN contract with Microsoft, all of >>>>their products are available for download, both current and pre-release >>>>versions. >>> >>>>Microsoft charges more for actually shipping the CD-ROMS/DVDs. >>> >>>I stand corrected. >>> >>>-- >>>Paul Sture >>> >>>Sue's OpenVMS >>>bookmarks:http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html- >>>Hide quoted text - >>> >>>- Show quoted text - >> >> >> Following John M's comments further up this thread, I am right in >> thinking that it's ok backing up an installed system disk using BACKUP/ >> IMAGE/NOALIAS and this will give a working disk when restored, aren't >> I? >> >> Steve > > -- >  > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:30:37 -0800 (PST) From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: <8cfc2694-0434-4fed-a1ee-9f7fe7eaabea@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On 11 Feb, 03:28, AEF wrote: > On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > > Graham, > > > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be > > perilous to DCL). > > Why might it be perilous to DCL? > > [...] > > AEF If it's a long-standing bug then people may rely on it or not expect the breakage to be fixed. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:37:11 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 004AD2D0852573EC_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" AEF wrote on 02/10/2008 10:28:36 PM: > On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > Graham, > > > > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be > > perilous to DCL). > > Why might it be perilous to DCL? > They might conclude that fixing it would introduce too much risk of introducing new errors. Especially so because the error Graham found is the result of a clear DCL syntax error. > [...] > > AEF --=_alternative 004AD2D0852573EC_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote on 02/10/2008 10:28:36 PM:

> On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote:
> > Graham,
> >
> > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be
> > perilous to DCL).
>
> Why might it be perilous to DCL?
>


They might conclude that fixing it would introduce too much risk of introducing new errors.
Especially so because the error Graham found is the result of a clear DCL syntax error.


> [...]
>
> AEF
--=_alternative 004AD2D0852573EC_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:55:14 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: On Feb 11, 9:30 am, etmsr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > On 11 Feb, 03:28, AEF wrote: > > > On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > > > Graham, > > > > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be > > > perilous to DCL). > > > Why might it be perilous to DCL? > > > [...] > > > AEF > > If it's a long-standing bug then people may rely on it or not expect > the breakage to be fixed. Why would anyone rely on skipping lines? Why would anyone type in lines only to have them skipped? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:56:44 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: <6d8ebd46-18a5-4def-a8f9-13a849980e84@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Feb 11, 9:37 am, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > AEF wrote on 02/10/2008 10:28:36 PM: > > > On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > > Graham, > > > > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be > > > perilous to DCL). > > > Why might it be perilous to DCL? > > They might conclude that fixing it would introduce too much risk of > introducing new errors. "They might" means nothing. There's always "there might", in which case you've said nothing. > Especially so because the error Graham found is the result of a clear DCL > syntax error. So? That should make it easy to fix, no? > > > [...] > > > AEF AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:44:25 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0050FABF852573EC_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" AEF wrote on 02/11/2008 08:56:44 AM: > On Feb 11, 9:37 am, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > AEF wrote on 02/10/2008 10:28:36 PM: > > > > > On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > > > Graham, > > > > > > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be > > > > perilous to DCL). > > > > > Why might it be perilous to DCL? > > > > They might conclude that fixing it would introduce too much risk of > > introducing new errors. > > "They might" means nothing. There's always "there might", in which > case you've said nothing. > > > Especially so because the error Graham found is the result of a clear DCL > > syntax error. > You're right, of course. There is no need to be negative or second-guess. I agree with you and the speculation is beside the point. I did say Graham should report it. I am not on the latest version so it is problematic for me to report it. One should get a response before criticizing it. > So? That should make it easy to fix, no? Can't know. I certainly cannot see why anyone would want this behavior. > > > > > > [...] > > > > > AEF > > AEF --=_alternative 0050FABF852573EC_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote on 02/11/2008 08:56:44 AM:

> On Feb 11, 9:37 am, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote:
> > AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote on 02/10/2008 10:28:36 PM:
> >
> > > On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote:
> > > > Graham,
> >
> > > > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be
> > > > perilous to DCL).
> >
> > > Why might it be perilous to DCL?
> >
> > They might conclude that fixing it would introduce too much risk of
> > introducing new errors.
>
> "They might" means nothing. There's always "there might", in which
> case you've said nothing.
>
> > Especially so because the error Graham found is the result of a clear DCL
> > syntax error.
>

You're right, of course.  There is no need to be negative or second-guess.
I agree with you and the speculation is beside the point.
I did say Graham should report it.  I am not on the latest version so it is
problematic for me to report it.  One should get a response before criticizing
it.

> So? That should make it easy to fix, no?


Can't know.  I certainly cannot see why anyone would want this behavior.

>
> >
> > > [...]
> >
> > > AEF
>
> AEF
--=_alternative 0050FABF852573EC_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:32:16 -0800 From: Vance Haemmerle Subject: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Message-ID: I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications. Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2? Last summer SPAM seemed to grow enormously, for me up to about 200-300 SPAM messages a day. I used the MX_SMTP_SERVER_DEBUG variable and looked at the traffic. Most of the SPAM messages could be easily detected by bad HELO hostnames (e.g. localhost or my own domain or host or IP) and invalid usernames. Some usernames in SPAM messges were actually usenet message IDs that I could even find in the original usenet post in Google Groups. I made modifications to the anti-relay version of SMTP_SERVER.B32, about 300 lines, and came up with several methods to reduce SPAM as well as added an optional usage of a DNS blackhole list to reject messages from hosts that are in the list. Using all the anti-SPAM messages and the blackhole list "zen.spamhaus.org" my SPAM was reduced by about 85-90%. Since then the SPAM has reduced and now I only get a few a day. I know that rejecting email based on the HELO message isn't good according to the RFCs but looking at what's on the Internet, I see many doing it and the seriousness of the SPAM problem is making it popular. Here is my documentation on how to use it: ------------------------------------------------------------------- New SPAM filter functionality for MX 4.2: Logical: MX_SMTP_SERVER_DNSBL Defines the name of the SPAM DNS Blackhole list to use. MX will take the remote address and check the blackhole list specified. If found on the list, the email will be rejected at the RCPT_TO command with the error: 554 Mail rejected; remote host is listed in SPAM DNS blackhole list <...> where <...> is the value of MX_SMTP_SERVER_DNSBL Logical: MX_SMTP_SERVER_SPAMCODE Defines which SPAM rules to use in filtering. Value is the sum of the rules as follows: Rule 1 Reject connections which use localhost as the HELO domain and the connection does not originate from 127.0.0.1 or connections which use localhost.localdomain. These will be rejected with the status: 554 Fix your HELO domain, localhost usually means SPAM. 2 Reject connections which use your hostname as the HELO domain and who's originating IP does not match. This includes connections using your host IP number. These will be rejected with the status: 554 Fix your HELO domain, using mine usually means SPAM. 4 Reject connections which do not use a fully qualified domain as the HELO domain. Specifically, the name must contain a "." or it will be rejected with the status: 504 Not a fully qualified domain name, usually means SPAM. 8 Reject RCPT_TO addresses who's local part does not contain a ":" and is greater than 12 characters (the max VMS username) for the case where the remote server is not in the relay.dat list (i.e. the RCPT_TO should be directed to the local system). These will be rejected with the status: 550 Username is not valid on this system. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Would people be interested in these new features? I see that madgoat.com no longer exists. What would the authors think of me distributing my changes? I also found a bug in compiling MX on VAX with the BLISS compiler. I had to add the option "/SYNTAX_LEVEL=2" to BFLAGS in DESCRIP.MMS for VAX so that the alias lines compiled without error. -- Vance Haemmerle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:47:42 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Message-ID: Vance Haemmerle wrote: > I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the > latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications. > Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2? Well, yes, I'm "still" using MX 4.2 since installing it about 2 weeks ago... :-) (I have been using the 3.x version(s) about 15 yrs ago, but that's another story.) I'd be intrerested in your changes. I see a lot of mails from users like : , and so on. Only Yahoo adresses for some reason... Jan-Erik. > > Last summer SPAM seemed to grow enormously, for me > up to about 200-300 SPAM messages a day. I used the > MX_SMTP_SERVER_DEBUG variable and looked at the traffic. > Most of the SPAM messages could be easily detected > by bad HELO hostnames (e.g. localhost or my own > domain or host or IP) and invalid usernames. Some > usernames in SPAM messges were actually usenet message > IDs that I could even find in the original usenet post > in Google Groups. > > I made modifications to the anti-relay version of SMTP_SERVER.B32, about > 300 lines, and came up with > several methods to reduce SPAM as well as added an > optional usage of a DNS blackhole list to reject > messages from hosts that are in the list. Using all > the anti-SPAM messages and the blackhole list "zen.spamhaus.org" my SPAM > was reduced by about 85-90%. > Since then the SPAM has reduced and now I only get a > few a day. > > I know that rejecting email based on the HELO > message isn't good according to the RFCs but looking > at what's on the Internet, I see many doing it > and the seriousness of the SPAM problem is making > it popular. > > Here is my documentation on how to use it: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > New SPAM filter functionality for MX 4.2: > > Logical: MX_SMTP_SERVER_DNSBL > > Defines the name of the SPAM DNS Blackhole list to use. > MX will take the remote address and check the blackhole > list specified. If found on the list, the email will be > rejected at the RCPT_TO command with the error: > > 554 Mail rejected; remote host is listed in SPAM DNS blackhole list <...> > > where <...> is the value of MX_SMTP_SERVER_DNSBL > > > Logical: MX_SMTP_SERVER_SPAMCODE > > Defines which SPAM rules to use in filtering. > Value is the sum of the rules as follows: > > Rule > 1 Reject connections which use localhost as the HELO domain and > the connection does not originate from 127.0.0.1 or connections > which use localhost.localdomain. These will be rejected with > the status: > > 554 Fix your HELO domain, localhost usually means SPAM. > > 2 Reject connections which use your hostname as the HELO domain > and who's originating IP does not match. This includes connections > using your host IP number. These will be rejected with the status: > > 554 Fix your HELO domain, using mine usually means SPAM. > > 4 Reject connections which do not use a fully qualified domain as > the HELO domain. Specifically, the name must contain a "." or it > will be rejected with the status: > > 504 Not a fully qualified domain name, usually means SPAM. > > 8 Reject RCPT_TO addresses who's local part does not contain a ":" and > is greater than 12 characters (the max VMS username) for the case where > the remote server is not in the relay.dat list (i.e. the RCPT_TO should > be directed to the local system). These will be rejected with the > status: > > 550 Username is not valid on this system. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Would people be interested in these new features? I see that > madgoat.com no longer exists. What would the authors think of me > distributing my changes? > > I also found a bug in compiling MX on VAX with the BLISS compiler. > I had to add the option "/SYNTAX_LEVEL=2" to BFLAGS in DESCRIP.MMS > for VAX so that the alias lines compiled without error. > > -- > Vance Haemmerle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:57:41 +0100 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Message-ID: Vance Haemmerle wrote: > I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the > latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications. > Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2? > Would people be interested in these new features? I see that > madgoat.com no longer exists. What would the authors think of me > distributing my changes? > > I also found a bug in compiling MX on VAX with the BLISS compiler. > I had to add the option "/SYNTAX_LEVEL=2" to BFLAGS in DESCRIP.MMS > for VAX so that the alias lines compiled without error. Just a coincidence (or a near miss ?): MX 6 is now open source, see http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=08/02/05/9642981 and http://forums12.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1190006 -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 13:25:06 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Message-ID: <61b0liF1u8k6sU5@mid.individual.net> In article , Jan-Erik Söderholm writes: > Vance Haemmerle wrote: >> I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the >> latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications. >> Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2? > > Well, yes, I'm "still" using MX 4.2 since installing > it about 2 weeks ago... :-) > > (I have been using the 3.x version(s) about 15 yrs ago, > but that's another story.) > > I'd be intrerested in your changes. > I see a lot of mails from users like : > , > and so on. > Only Yahoo adresses for some reason... > Gee, that looks easy to fix. Block yahoo.com. :-) And, before someone asks, yes, I would. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 14:34:16 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Message-ID: <47b05ce8$0$15183$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , Vance Haemmerle writes: >I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the >latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications. >Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2? > >Last summer SPAM seemed to grow enormously, for me >up to about 200-300 SPAM messages a day. I used the >MX_SMTP_SERVER_DEBUG variable and looked at the traffic. >Most of the SPAM messages could be easily detected >by bad HELO hostnames (e.g. localhost or my own >domain or host or IP) and invalid usernames. Some >usernames in SPAM messges were actually usenet message >IDs that I could even find in the original usenet post >in Google Groups. I've notice a *marked* increase in SPAM since the holidays. Probably all of those new _V_isual _I_nterface _S_imilar _T_o _A_pple boxes foisted on the hapless as holiday presents without knowledge of how to properly sec- ure them prior to putting them on the internet. Regardless, if you visit http://www.MadGoat.com you will see that Matt has put the sources up for MX 6.0 and other MagGoat products. This may help you with your present SPAM issues. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 14:41:23 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Message-ID: <47b05e92$0$15183$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <61b0liF1u8k6sU5@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > Jan-Erik Söderholm writes: >> Vance Haemmerle wrote: >>> I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the >>> latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications. >>> Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2? >> >> Well, yes, I'm "still" using MX 4.2 since installing >> it about 2 weeks ago... :-) >> >> (I have been using the 3.x version(s) about 15 yrs ago, >> but that's another story.) >> >> I'd be intrerested in your changes. >> I see a lot of mails from users like : >> , >> and so on. >> Only Yahoo adresses for some reason... >> > >Gee, that looks easy to fix. Block yahoo.com. :-) > >And, before someone asks, yes, I would. I have. I have put the email addresses of a few people I know using Yahoo on a whilelist but the volume of crap coming from Yahoo.com warranted, IMO, blocking that whole domain. It will be absolutely necessary, IMHO, if/when M$ acquired Yahoo. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 18:42:11 +0100 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2 Message-ID: <47b09703$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , Vance Haemmerle writes: >Would people be interested in these new features? I see that >madgoat.com no longer exists. What would the authors think of me >distributing my changes? Matt (the author) has made MX V5 (know, the one with Anti-SPAM) freeware now. Why not take it, and improve it (for all of us) -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:40:07 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: TU58 cartridges Message-ID: <47B08877.8090503@comcast.net> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> Anybody got some TU58 cartridges they want to get rid of for the >> cost of postage? I could use a bunch. :-) >> >> bill >> >> > > I've got three. Two of them are labeled HSC V4.1 Software and the other > is labeled "blank". AFAIK, they were never used. > > Three for $15 and I'll pay the postage. $10 if you want to come to > Turnersville and haul them away. Looking at my Atlas, it looks as if > mailing them would be the better deal. > I'm withdrawing my offer. I just looked up the MARKET PRICE for those suckers!! $29 each, used, untested!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:14:40 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: <47aff5de$0$23610$426a74cc@news.free.fr> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Mark, > > > > Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe > ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no problem > with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in the > t2$examples directory. > A recorded of a Flex <-> VMS demonstration application (need the Flash plugin, but it's for a Flex demo anyway, its only a technological demonstration, not necessary a useful application): http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm The VMS part used WASD (so, http or https, VMS authentication, throttling,...), and a few hundred lines of Python code. JFP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:21:59 +1030 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: <13qvvntem966s0d@corp.supernews.com> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Mark, > > >>Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck >>eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET >>Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 >>offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than >>Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available >>and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is >>supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. > > > Now I'm dissappointed :-( If someone with your abilities, attention to > detail, and seeming fathomless desire to read anything and everything, > cannot understand one of the basic tenets of the Tier3 architecture then the > documentation must be in a sorry shape indeeed. Please (re)read chapter 2 in > the Tier3 Client/Server Development manual > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/tier3_031.pdf and get back to me. I > think the key words are *No client-specific software required!*. I think I understand that Tier3 is back-end only :-) All you need is a network connection (TCP/IP, IPsec-ed preferably (not TLS), or DECnet) and some front-end, roll-your-own glue. My suggestion, obviously clumsily put, was that providing a .NET Framework equivalent to the Java applet(s?) you have put up, would have reached a *larger* audience. "Is it supported on Win32? Of course! Look ..." > If you want to use .NET then go crazy! Anyone, and everyone, can talk to > Tier3 application servers using standard TCP/IP Sockets (or DECnet > interface) with whatever tools they require or desire. ActiveX controls? I > love it! - Java Sockets? Can't get enough of it! C+ BSD Sockets? Mad for it! > VMS System Services? I'm over the moon! > > I ( with heaps of help from the likes of the very talented Bojan Nemec's and > Arne's of the world) provided a Java Applet example because I thought it > might be useful for VMS sites to be able to automatically distribute their > client GUI application over the web at the click of a button. No more > cumbersome client-software rollouts and upgrades. (As well as the usual > Tier3 benefits of complete integration with the VMS security model, > transparent multi-threading, and TP load-balancing) Silly me, hey? > > Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe > ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no problem > with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in the > t2$examples directory. > > I *really, really, really* want to provide an Asynchronous Socket client > example using JSObject (maybe tick over a stock-price, or perhaps an OPCOM > message) and I *really, really, really* want to incorporate the Flex-Ajax > Bridge to deliver Flex Charting examples, but with absolutely bugger-all > help from HP/VMS (as usual) it's having to go on the back-burner as I am > fortunate enough to be involved with a Linux/Java/SOAP development that with > be talking to one of the main travel CRSs. (And of course an IA64 version > if HP would sell me an Itanium box at the same price they are forcing them > on others) > > Anyway, gotta go. . . > > Cheers Richard Maher > > PS. WRT Silverlight, please search this group for why I (FWIW) think it is > definitely *not* the way to go. Microsoft for one (and I'm sure there's > more) know that HTTP is a poorly performing, insecure, piece of shit when it > comes to an application middleware protocol, and now with Silverlight's "I > can't believe it's not butter (or AJAX in this case)" perhaps they'll be > able to deliver a high-performance propritary solution under the covers > after the initial handshake. > > On Jan 12, 12:07 pm, Mark Daniel wrote: > >>Richard Maher wrote: >> >>>Hi Mark, >> >>>>Hmmm. Perhaps >> >>>> Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3. >> >>>>or >> >>>> Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit - T3SIT >> >>>>:-) >> >>>>Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and leave VMS >>>>an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction? >> >>>>Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end up >>>>finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren. >> >>>My God, I'm transparent! How long has this been going on? >> >>>Look, at the end of the day, I can't believe I'm having to defend the >>>concept of "logging-on" to some people! Or the fact that having a 1:M >>>relationship between Application Server Connections and Messages > > Exchanged > >>>is also a good thing. (Here's an idea for an additional stats field for >>>WASD; "HTTP 1.1 requests per connection". >> >> HTTPd ...uma.es:80 >> Server Statistics (HTTPe:80) >> Saturday, 12-JAN-2008 03:59:50 >> 8< snip 8< >> Request Processing >> ------------------ >> 8< snip 8< >> Connection Request HTTP >> ---------- ------- ---- >> Total: 1956677 Total: 7625722 1.1: 5953591 (84%) >> Current: 7 Current: 1 1.0: 1133162 (16%) >> Peak: 735 Peak: 586 0.9: 91 (0%) >> 8< snip 8< >> Persistent /Total: 5219968 >> /Max: 509 >> Pipeline /Total: 12971 >> /Max: 60 >> 8< snip 8< >> >>>(Internet bloody Explorer gives me >>>3 connections to receive a single Applet :-( bizarre)) >>>The browser *is* the GUI (maybe even the OS?) but that does not mandate > > a > >>>http web-server being the application middleware back-bone! Expedient, >>>ubiquitous, "easy" - yes, but "right" no way! (Leaving to one side > > security > >>>and high-performance for the moment) >> >>>Just watch what Microsoft is doing with SilverLight and control of > > server > >>>interaction, and also Adobe, Oracle, IBM and BEA. Web-Servers are great > > at > >>>serving up files and pimping for applications, but once the > > introductions > >>>have been made, you should put the Sow's ear down and start sowing with >>>silk! >> >>Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck >>eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET >>Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 >>offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than >>Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available >>and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is >>supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. >> >> >>>Whether you choose to call it a Portal, a Consolidator, or a Broker, > > your > >>>application server *is* something that you'll log-on and maintain a >>>connection to. I just see no reason why that Application Server isn't > > VMS. > >>>VMS has the security, reliability, disaster tolerence, and clustering >>>superiority that could give it the-edge in the server arena; it's just a >>>shame it's not happening (and hasn't been for over 10 years :-() Call me >>>crazy, but if Tier3 can give you Context-Rich, Connection-Oriented, >>>client-interaction coupled with Transparent Load-Balancing and Network >>>Communication, and Integrated VMS Authentication on the server-side, > > then I > >>>also think that's a good thing! All any Application Server that you > > write > >>>(in any 3GL) will consist of is 6 User Action Routines built into a >>>Shareable Image - That's it! No aditional privileges reqd, your > > server(s) > >>>run a a VMS detached process under the username that you select, a > > Persona > >>>matching the client's credentials is made available to your 3GL routines > > in > >>>order to aid in access control, and full VMS Debugger faciliities are at >>>your disposal. Add to that the fact that each Application can be tuned > > and > >>>configured independantly by your System Manager, and it's all gravy!!! >> >>>Anyway, you and the cast of thousands at the IMM team are free to persue > > VMS > >>>Middle Management's "Year Zero" program and send all the corrupt legacy >>>3GL/DCL/SystemService/Macro coders out of the decadent cities and into > > the > >>>pure, unsullied, Java-OO-and-http paddy-fields. Sooner or later those >>>wankers have to realize that it's the revenue that the cities generate >>>that's keeping them, and VMS, afloat? Sadly, by that stage, I suspect > > we'll > >>>all be lying in those paddy fields with plastic bags over our heads :-( >> >>>>(suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little* fun of >>>>your sometime glossolalia Richard :-) >> >>>I've found it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to > > slagging > >>>people off with your reckless throw away lines :-) A bit of empathy > > never > >>>hurt anyone you know. I'm mean next you'll be saying something like >>>"Sachin's (pick a close relative)'s an Untouchable"; and where will it > > all > >>>end then eh? >> >>>Cheers Richard Maher >> >>>PS. I would have sworn that "glossolalia" was a word you just made up; > > and > >>>yet how appropriate, humorous, and still cutting on so many levels. >> >>High praise indeed! Received with due humility. ;-) >> >> >>>I suggest you drink more and read less :-) >> >>Sage advice at the end of my annual leave! Prosit!! >> >> >> >> >>>"Mark Daniel" wrote in message >>>news:13ob3863rj19iaf@corp.supernews.com... >> >>8< snip 8< >> >>>>Credulity kills. >>>>[Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World] >> >>-- >>The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in >>politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for >>it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where >>fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely >>solar system. The history of our study of our solar system shows us >>clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that >>fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources. >>[Carl Sagan; quotation from the Cosmos television series] -- I believe that an orderly universe, one indifferent to human preoccupations, in which everything has an explanation even if we still have a long way to go before we find it, is a more beautiful, more wonderful place than a universe tricked out with capricious ad hoc magic. [Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:21:41 +1030 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: <13r06oakqubquf4@corp.supernews.com> Mark Daniel wrote: > Richard Maher wrote: > >> Hi Mark, >> >> >>> Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck >>> eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET >>> Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 >>> offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than >>> Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available >>> and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is >>> supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. >> >> >> >> Now I'm dissappointed :-( If someone with your abilities, attention to >> detail, and seeming fathomless desire to read anything and everything, >> cannot understand one of the basic tenets of the Tier3 architecture >> then the >> documentation must be in a sorry shape indeeed. Please (re)read >> chapter 2 in >> the Tier3 Client/Server Development manual >> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/tier3_031.pdf and get back to me. I >> think the key words are *No client-specific software required!*. > > > I think I understand that Tier3 is back-end only :-) All you need is a Hmmm. I better clarify this as well. AIUI, it's back-end glue. You need to roll-your-own back-end. > network connection (TCP/IP, IPsec-ed preferably (not TLS), or DECnet) > and some front-end, roll-your-own glue. My suggestion, obviously > clumsily put, was that providing a .NET Framework equivalent to the Java > applet(s?) you have put up, would have reached a *larger* audience. "Is > it supported on Win32? Of course! Look ..." > >> If you want to use .NET then go crazy! Anyone, and everyone, can talk to >> Tier3 application servers using standard TCP/IP Sockets (or DECnet >> interface) with whatever tools they require or desire. ActiveX >> controls? I >> love it! - Java Sockets? Can't get enough of it! C+ BSD Sockets? Mad >> for it! >> VMS System Services? I'm over the moon! >> >> I ( with heaps of help from the likes of the very talented Bojan >> Nemec's and >> Arne's of the world) provided a Java Applet example because I thought it >> might be useful for VMS sites to be able to automatically distribute >> their >> client GUI application over the web at the click of a button. No more >> cumbersome client-software rollouts and upgrades. (As well as the usual >> Tier3 benefits of complete integration with the VMS security model, >> transparent multi-threading, and TP load-balancing) Silly me, hey? >> >> Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe >> ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no >> problem >> with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find >> in the >> t2$examples directory. >> >> I *really, really, really* want to provide an Asynchronous Socket client >> example using JSObject (maybe tick over a stock-price, or perhaps an >> OPCOM >> message) and I *really, really, really* want to incorporate the Flex-Ajax >> Bridge to deliver Flex Charting examples, but with absolutely bugger-all >> help from HP/VMS (as usual) it's having to go on the back-burner as I am >> fortunate enough to be involved with a Linux/Java/SOAP development >> that with >> be talking to one of the main travel CRSs. (And of course an IA64 >> version >> if HP would sell me an Itanium box at the same price they are forcing >> them >> on others) >> >> Anyway, gotta go. . . >> >> Cheers Richard Maher >> >> PS. WRT Silverlight, please search this group for why I (FWIW) think >> it is >> definitely *not* the way to go. Microsoft for one (and I'm sure there's >> more) know that HTTP is a poorly performing, insecure, piece of shit >> when it >> comes to an application middleware protocol, and now with >> Silverlight's "I >> can't believe it's not butter (or AJAX in this case)" perhaps they'll be >> able to deliver a high-performance propritary solution under the covers >> after the initial handshake. >> >> On Jan 12, 12:07 pm, Mark Daniel wrote: >> >>> Richard Maher wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mark, >>> >>> >>>>> Hmmm. Perhaps >>> >>> >>>>> Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3. >>> >>> >>>>> or >>> >>> >>>>> Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit - T3SIT >>> >>> >>>>> :-) >>> >>> >>>>> Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and >>>>> leave VMS >>>>> an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction? >>> >>> >>>>> Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end up >>>>> finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren. >>> >>> >>>> My God, I'm transparent! How long has this been going on? >>> >>> >>>> Look, at the end of the day, I can't believe I'm having to defend the >>>> concept of "logging-on" to some people! Or the fact that having a 1:M >>>> relationship between Application Server Connections and Messages >> >> >> Exchanged >> >>>> is also a good thing. (Here's an idea for an additional stats field for >>>> WASD; "HTTP 1.1 requests per connection". >>> >>> >>> HTTPd ...uma.es:80 >>> Server Statistics (HTTPe:80) >>> Saturday, 12-JAN-2008 03:59:50 >>> 8< snip 8< >>> Request Processing >>> ------------------ >>> 8< snip 8< >>> Connection Request HTTP >>> ---------- ------- ---- >>> Total: 1956677 Total: 7625722 1.1: 5953591 (84%) >>> Current: 7 Current: 1 1.0: 1133162 (16%) >>> Peak: 735 Peak: 586 0.9: 91 (0%) >>> 8< snip 8< >>> Persistent /Total: 5219968 >>> /Max: 509 >>> Pipeline /Total: 12971 >>> /Max: 60 >>> 8< snip 8< >>> >>>> (Internet bloody Explorer gives me >>>> 3 connections to receive a single Applet :-( bizarre)) >>>> The browser *is* the GUI (maybe even the OS?) but that does not mandate >> >> >> a >> >>>> http web-server being the application middleware back-bone! Expedient, >>>> ubiquitous, "easy" - yes, but "right" no way! (Leaving to one side >> >> >> security >> >>>> and high-performance for the moment) >>> >>> >>>> Just watch what Microsoft is doing with SilverLight and control of >> >> >> server >> >>>> interaction, and also Adobe, Oracle, IBM and BEA. Web-Servers are great >> >> >> at >> >>>> serving up files and pimping for applications, but once the >> >> >> introductions >> >>>> have been made, you should put the Sow's ear down and start sowing with >>>> silk! >>> >>> >>> Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck >>> eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET >>> Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 >>> offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than >>> Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available >>> and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is >>> supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. >>> >>> >>>> Whether you choose to call it a Portal, a Consolidator, or a Broker, >> >> >> your >> >>>> application server *is* something that you'll log-on and maintain a >>>> connection to. I just see no reason why that Application Server isn't >> >> >> VMS. >> >>>> VMS has the security, reliability, disaster tolerence, and clustering >>>> superiority that could give it the-edge in the server arena; it's >>>> just a >>>> shame it's not happening (and hasn't been for over 10 years :-() >>>> Call me >>>> crazy, but if Tier3 can give you Context-Rich, Connection-Oriented, >>>> client-interaction coupled with Transparent Load-Balancing and Network >>>> Communication, and Integrated VMS Authentication on the server-side, >> >> >> then I >> >>>> also think that's a good thing! All any Application Server that you >> >> >> write >> >>>> (in any 3GL) will consist of is 6 User Action Routines built into a >>>> Shareable Image - That's it! No aditional privileges reqd, your >> >> >> server(s) >> >>>> run a a VMS detached process under the username that you select, a >> >> >> Persona >> >>>> matching the client's credentials is made available to your 3GL >>>> routines >> >> >> in >> >>>> order to aid in access control, and full VMS Debugger faciliities >>>> are at >>>> your disposal. Add to that the fact that each Application can be tuned >> >> >> and >> >>>> configured independantly by your System Manager, and it's all gravy!!! >>> >>> >>>> Anyway, you and the cast of thousands at the IMM team are free to >>>> persue >> >> >> VMS >> >>>> Middle Management's "Year Zero" program and send all the corrupt legacy >>>> 3GL/DCL/SystemService/Macro coders out of the decadent cities and into >> >> >> the >> >>>> pure, unsullied, Java-OO-and-http paddy-fields. Sooner or later those >>>> wankers have to realize that it's the revenue that the cities generate >>>> that's keeping them, and VMS, afloat? Sadly, by that stage, I suspect >> >> >> we'll >> >>>> all be lying in those paddy fields with plastic bags over our heads :-( >>> >>> >>>>> (suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little* fun of >>>>> your sometime glossolalia Richard :-) >>> >>> >>>> I've found it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to >> >> >> slagging >> >>>> people off with your reckless throw away lines :-) A bit of empathy >> >> >> never >> >>>> hurt anyone you know. I'm mean next you'll be saying something like >>>> "Sachin's (pick a close relative)'s an Untouchable"; and where will it >> >> >> all >> >>>> end then eh? >>> >>> >>>> Cheers Richard Maher >>> >>> >>>> PS. I would have sworn that "glossolalia" was a word you just made up; >> >> >> and >> >>>> yet how appropriate, humorous, and still cutting on so many levels. >>> >>> >>> High praise indeed! Received with due humility. ;-) >>> >>> >>>> I suggest you drink more and read less :-) >>> >>> >>> Sage advice at the end of my annual leave! Prosit!! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> "Mark Daniel" wrote in message >>>> news:13ob3863rj19iaf@corp.supernews.com... >>> >>> >>> 8< snip 8< >>> >>>>> Credulity kills. >>>>> [Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World] >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in >>> politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for >>> it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where >>> fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely >>> solar system. The history of our study of our solar system shows us >>> clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that >>> fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources. >>> [Carl Sagan; quotation from the Cosmos television series] > > > -- > I believe that an orderly universe, one indifferent to human > preoccupations, in which everything has an explanation even if we still > have a long way to go before we find it, is a more beautiful, more > wonderful place than a universe tricked out with capricious ad hoc magic. > [Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow] -- To fill a world with ... religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used. [Richard Dawkins; "Religion's Misguided Missiles"] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:21:52 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: Hi Mark, > I think I understand that Tier3 is back-end only :-) All you need is a > network connection (TCP/IP, IPsec-ed preferably (not TLS), or DECnet) > and some front-end, roll-your-own glue. Pretty much. Tier3 is the middleware that places almost no restrictions on the client software and functionality that you choose to deploy, Web-browser based, or not, as the case may be. (Stand-alone VB.NET, Java, C, or Applets embedded in a browser) Yet it supplies your native VMS 3GL code with a secure, context-rich, connection-oriented, environment in which client/server interaction can take place. Server-affinity is completely at the discretion of your code, with any number of message exchanges constituting a single RPC. (And all of this without dodgy SessionIds, Cookies, Expiration-Dates, and Session-Hijacking :-) Do you want to return a result-set from a database which may contain many hundreds (possibly thousands) of rows to your Pie-Chart and deploy Flex's data-binding so that the graph morphs to reflect the real-time reality of the figures as they arrive *one row at a time*? Do you which to obtain the perfomance benefits of parallelism where the client can be enriching or adding value, to the data as it arrives and presenting it while the server is busy priming the pipe? More than ~100 rows too much you say? 15GB of XML in a single chunk is a much better solution? Well how about empowering the user with a hot-abort button that actually tells the server to desist rather than just cancel the client and leave the server trundling along? . How about trasparent multi-threading, and server network communication? . How about only having to write six User Action Routines for any server application? . How about server configuration and tuning on an application by application basis? . How about not having to grant your server processes any elevated privileges? . How about your server code being able to assume the client VMS Persona while performing work on the clients behalf? (Useful for meaningful auditing perhaps, prevents the client from obtaining elevated privileges? But then this is a high-performance VMS Shareable image spawned of 3GL code we're talking about here, so tricking an interpereter into eval() or executing malicious code is not much of an issue!) . How about discussing the codepath of some of these bollocks http solutions? > My suggestion, obviously > clumsily put, was that providing a .NET Framework equivalent to the Java > applet(s?) you have put up, would have reached a *larger* audience. "Is > it supported on Win32? Of course! Look ..." Look, I'm all for .NET Framework it's just that I don't know it and would have to get someone in. (My last *brilliant* Windows developer is now semi-retired and doing a very nice line in Italian taps and bathroom fittings) But if there's anyone out there that wants to provide a .NET Socket client example then I'll willingly and gratefully accept it. We have a *very* old VB ActiveX example that used Pathworks Sockets on a Windows PC, but whether it's still ActiveX controls with .NET or Managed-Service WidgetY and how it all fits into a proprietary browser, I simply don't know. ("Interface not sufraced by ADO" - Humbug :-) Stand alone apps are great! Full-function, high-performance, secure, yadda yadda yadda; I happen to think JavaScript/Flex and not having to rollout new versions of your client software is where it's happening at the moment - shoot me. You are aware that Java is a little bit portable arn't you :-) The code I supplied is the *only* Java you need write (or change it if you damn well like! See what I care :-) It is re-usable on application after application, just present the bloody JAR! Windows, OS-X, *NIX, IE, FireFox, Safari, Opera. . .A resonable "large" audience perhaps? Cheers Richard Maher PS. I see after they let David Hicks out of Guantanamo Bay, they sent him to Adelaide. Surely he's suffered enough? ;-) "Mark Daniel" wrote in message news:13qvvntem966s0d@corp.supernews.com... > Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > > >>Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck > >>eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET > >>Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 > >>offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than > >>Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available > >>and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is > >>supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. > > > > > > Now I'm dissappointed :-( If someone with your abilities, attention to > > detail, and seeming fathomless desire to read anything and everything, > > cannot understand one of the basic tenets of the Tier3 architecture then the > > documentation must be in a sorry shape indeeed. Please (re)read chapter 2 in > > the Tier3 Client/Server Development manual > > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/tier3_031.pdf and get back to me. I > > think the key words are *No client-specific software required!*. > > I think I understand that Tier3 is back-end only :-) All you need is a > network connection (TCP/IP, IPsec-ed preferably (not TLS), or DECnet) > and some front-end, roll-your-own glue. My suggestion, obviously > clumsily put, was that providing a .NET Framework equivalent to the Java > applet(s?) you have put up, would have reached a *larger* audience. "Is > it supported on Win32? Of course! Look ..." > > > If you want to use .NET then go crazy! Anyone, and everyone, can talk to > > Tier3 application servers using standard TCP/IP Sockets (or DECnet > > interface) with whatever tools they require or desire. ActiveX controls? I > > love it! - Java Sockets? Can't get enough of it! C+ BSD Sockets? Mad for it! > > VMS System Services? I'm over the moon! > > > > I ( with heaps of help from the likes of the very talented Bojan Nemec's and > > Arne's of the world) provided a Java Applet example because I thought it > > might be useful for VMS sites to be able to automatically distribute their > > client GUI application over the web at the click of a button. No more > > cumbersome client-software rollouts and upgrades. (As well as the usual > > Tier3 benefits of complete integration with the VMS security model, > > transparent multi-threading, and TP load-balancing) Silly me, hey? > > > > Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe > > ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no problem > > with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in the > > t2$examples directory. > > > > I *really, really, really* want to provide an Asynchronous Socket client > > example using JSObject (maybe tick over a stock-price, or perhaps an OPCOM > > message) and I *really, really, really* want to incorporate the Flex-Ajax > > Bridge to deliver Flex Charting examples, but with absolutely bugger-all > > help from HP/VMS (as usual) it's having to go on the back-burner as I am > > fortunate enough to be involved with a Linux/Java/SOAP development that with > > be talking to one of the main travel CRSs. (And of course an IA64 version > > if HP would sell me an Itanium box at the same price they are forcing them > > on others) > > > > Anyway, gotta go. . . > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > PS. WRT Silverlight, please search this group for why I (FWIW) think it is > > definitely *not* the way to go. Microsoft for one (and I'm sure there's > > more) know that HTTP is a poorly performing, insecure, piece of shit when it > > comes to an application middleware protocol, and now with Silverlight's "I > > can't believe it's not butter (or AJAX in this case)" perhaps they'll be > > able to deliver a high-performance propritary solution under the covers > > after the initial handshake. > > > > On Jan 12, 12:07 pm, Mark Daniel wrote: > > > >>Richard Maher wrote: > >> > >>>Hi Mark, > >> > >>>>Hmmm. Perhaps > >> > >>>> Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3. > >> > >>>>or > >> > >>>> Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit - T3SIT > >> > >>>>:-) > >> > >>>>Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and leave VMS > >>>>an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction? > >> > >>>>Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end up > >>>>finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren. > >> > >>>My God, I'm transparent! How long has this been going on? > >> > >>>Look, at the end of the day, I can't believe I'm having to defend the > >>>concept of "logging-on" to some people! Or the fact that having a 1:M > >>>relationship between Application Server Connections and Messages > > > > Exchanged > > > >>>is also a good thing. (Here's an idea for an additional stats field for > >>>WASD; "HTTP 1.1 requests per connection". > >> > >> HTTPd ...uma.es:80 > >> Server Statistics (HTTPe:80) > >> Saturday, 12-JAN-2008 03:59:50 > >> 8< snip 8< > >> Request Processing > >> ------------------ > >> 8< snip 8< > >> Connection Request HTTP > >> ---------- ------- ---- > >> Total: 1956677 Total: 7625722 1.1: 5953591 (84%) > >> Current: 7 Current: 1 1.0: 1133162 (16%) > >> Peak: 735 Peak: 586 0.9: 91 (0%) > >> 8< snip 8< > >> Persistent /Total: 5219968 > >> /Max: 509 > >> Pipeline /Total: 12971 > >> /Max: 60 > >> 8< snip 8< > >> > >>>(Internet bloody Explorer gives me > >>>3 connections to receive a single Applet :-( bizarre)) > >>>The browser *is* the GUI (maybe even the OS?) but that does not mandate > > > > a > > > >>>http web-server being the application middleware back-bone! Expedient, > >>>ubiquitous, "easy" - yes, but "right" no way! (Leaving to one side > > > > security > > > >>>and high-performance for the moment) > >> > >>>Just watch what Microsoft is doing with SilverLight and control of > > > > server > > > >>>interaction, and also Adobe, Oracle, IBM and BEA. Web-Servers are great > > > > at > > > >>>serving up files and pimping for applications, but once the > > > > introductions > > > >>>have been made, you should put the Sow's ear down and start sowing with > >>>silk! > >> > >>Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck > >>eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET > >>Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 > >>offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than > >>Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available > >>and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is > >>supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. > >> > >> > >>>Whether you choose to call it a Portal, a Consolidator, or a Broker, > > > > your > > > >>>application server *is* something that you'll log-on and maintain a > >>>connection to. I just see no reason why that Application Server isn't > > > > VMS. > > > >>>VMS has the security, reliability, disaster tolerence, and clustering > >>>superiority that could give it the-edge in the server arena; it's just a > >>>shame it's not happening (and hasn't been for over 10 years :-() Call me > >>>crazy, but if Tier3 can give you Context-Rich, Connection-Oriented, > >>>client-interaction coupled with Transparent Load-Balancing and Network > >>>Communication, and Integrated VMS Authentication on the server-side, > > > > then I > > > >>>also think that's a good thing! All any Application Server that you > > > > write > > > >>>(in any 3GL) will consist of is 6 User Action Routines built into a > >>>Shareable Image - That's it! No aditional privileges reqd, your > > > > server(s) > > > >>>run a a VMS detached process under the username that you select, a > > > > Persona > > > >>>matching the client's credentials is made available to your 3GL routines > > > > in > > > >>>order to aid in access control, and full VMS Debugger faciliities are at > >>>your disposal. Add to that the fact that each Application can be tuned > > > > and > > > >>>configured independantly by your System Manager, and it's all gravy!!! > >> > >>>Anyway, you and the cast of thousands at the IMM team are free to persue > > > > VMS > > > >>>Middle Management's "Year Zero" program and send all the corrupt legacy > >>>3GL/DCL/SystemService/Macro coders out of the decadent cities and into > > > > the > > > >>>pure, unsullied, Java-OO-and-http paddy-fields. Sooner or later those > >>>wankers have to realize that it's the revenue that the cities generate > >>>that's keeping them, and VMS, afloat? Sadly, by that stage, I suspect > > > > we'll > > > >>>all be lying in those paddy fields with plastic bags over our heads :-( > >> > >>>>(suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little* fun of > >>>>your sometime glossolalia Richard :-) > >> > >>>I've found it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to > > > > slagging > > > >>>people off with your reckless throw away lines :-) A bit of empathy > > > > never > > > >>>hurt anyone you know. I'm mean next you'll be saying something like > >>>"Sachin's (pick a close relative)'s an Untouchable"; and where will it > > > > all > > > >>>end then eh? > >> > >>>Cheers Richard Maher > >> > >>>PS. I would have sworn that "glossolalia" was a word you just made up; > > > > and > > > >>>yet how appropriate, humorous, and still cutting on so many levels. > >> > >>High praise indeed! Received with due humility. ;-) > >> > >> > >>>I suggest you drink more and read less :-) > >> > >>Sage advice at the end of my annual leave! Prosit!! > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>"Mark Daniel" wrote in message > >>>news:13ob3863rj19iaf@corp.supernews.com... > >> > >>8< snip 8< > >> > >>>>Credulity kills. > >>>>[Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World] > >> > >>-- > >>The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in > >>politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for > >>it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where > >>fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely > >>solar system. The history of our study of our solar system shows us > >>clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that > >>fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources. > >>[Carl Sagan; quotation from the Cosmos television series] > > -- > I believe that an orderly universe, one indifferent to human > preoccupations, in which everything has an explanation even if we still > have a long way to go before we find it, is a more beautiful, more > wonderful place than a universe tricked out with capricious ad hoc magic. > [Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow] ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2008 07:27:33 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMSINSTAL Message Message-ID: In article <47AD2B1B.1040908@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > $ @VMSINSTAL UNZIP_U2053.A I'd make that: $ @sys$update:vmsinstal UNZIP_U2053.A But, I'm not sure I'd let anyone do it that didn't understand the basics of DCL syntax. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:06:35 -0500 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? Message-ID: In article <00A74E4E.933A00A3@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) wrote: > On the one hand, the question is now moot, because the HP5550 was > cheaper and the beancounters decided that was a compelling reason. On > the other, I thought I might flush out the DCPS developer (who has > very kindly popped up and answered questions here in the past) to > give me a hint about whether it would be supported in future. Alan, I've looked into the differences between the Xerox Phaser 7750 and 7760 printers this morning and they appear to be minimal. The 7760 is the replacement for the 7750 and has an optional puncher, but otherwise they appear very similar under the hood. And they appear to have that same off-white color on the outside, so they must be about the same, right? I've added the 7760 to the list of printers we might support in the next version of DCPS. We are always interested in hearing about printer models customers want supported. It's also very likely it would work with DCPS V2.6 as long as you fooled DCPS into thinking it was a 7750 by defining the PRODUCT_NAME logical name. In article , ewilts@ewilts.org wrote: > The certification process isn't hard but the vendor has to send a > printer to the DCPS group and most vendors don't want to do that. But some do, or at least offer an alternative way of having us test their printers. In article <47adcb13$0$22074$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote: > In the end, the solution is for DCPS to become more open to alow any > printer to work with DCPS by adding the printer's PPD in some VMS > directory. Reading PPDs has been on our wish list for a long time. If it was simple we would have already done it. The information contained in PPDs is necessary, but not sufficient, for us to add support for a printer. We have changed DCPS over the years to make it easier to work with printers it doesn't know about. We've added LPD, assumed all printers have PCL, created a "generic HP" class of printer and added media type support, so that unsupported printers will work with DCPS. That's not as good as "supported" to some, but good enough for others. In article , ewilts@ewilts.org wrote: > There is no way that a PPD file will magically turn a unidirectional > TCP/IP stack in to a bidirectional one. Yup. And some printers have a bidirectional IP stack but don't tell us when it's done with the job. We consider that rude, although the printer manufacturer probably doesn't think so. We are constantly tweaking things because of the way printers are in the real world. > The question comes down to: do you need the features that DCPS > offers? If not, then don't even bother fighting for DCPS support and > use simple drivers that dump the data to the printer and hope for the > best. However, some/many of us really, really appreciate the extra > effort that Paul and crew have put into DCPS that help separate VMS > from crappy operating systems. Flattery will get you everywhere. In article <47ADF1DB.2050702@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > How does it benefit HP to support competitor's printers? Sure, it's > a nice and generous thing to do . . . . We'll always make sure HP printers are supported. But some OpenVMS customers buy other brands of printers, so we add some of those printers too. In article <47ae5513$0$30174$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote: > BTW, Mr Anderson, if you read this: The NPMANAGE utility for the mac > can be used on OSX (powermac). Runs in the classic environment fine. That's true through 10.4. Leopard (Mac OS X 10.5) doesn't run Classic applications, nor, as you noted, do Intel Macs. Paul -- Paul Anderson OpenVMS Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:32:27 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? Message-ID: In article , Paul Anderson writes: >In article <00A74E4E.933A00A3@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, > winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) > wrote: > > >We have changed DCPS over the years to make it easier to work with >printers it doesn't know about. We've added LPD, assumed all printers >have PCL, Sorry does this mean that DCPS supports non-postscript PCL printers ? David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >created a "generic HP" class of printer and added media type >support, so that unsupported printers will work with DCPS. That's not >as good as "supported" to some, but good enough for others. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:34:14 -0500 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS? Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , > Paul Anderson writes: > >In article <00A74E4E.933A00A3@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, > > winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central > > Computing) wrote: > > > > > >We have changed DCPS over the years to make it easier to work with > >printers it doesn't know about. We've added LPD, assumed all > >printers have PCL, > > Sorry does this mean that DCPS supports non-postscript PCL printers ? No. A PostScript interpreter is required for DCPS jobs. DCPS used to assume that any printer it didn't know about did not have a PCL interpreter in addition to a PostScript interpreter. Starting with DCPS V2.4, DCPS assumes such printers have a PCL interpreter also. The old behavior caused the DCPS PCL 4 translator to be used to translate PCL to PostScript, which could produce incorrect results with PCL 5 or 6 code. Now such code will print with the printer's native PCL interpreter. Paul -- Paul Anderson OpenVMS Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:16:24 -0800 From: Vance Haemmerle Subject: XP1000 and DEGPA-TA Message-ID: After getting a DEGPA-TA (Gigabit Ethernet) for an XP1000 I can confirm that it does work fine on VMS V7.2-2. It doesn't show up under "show device" in the firmware but does show up as "DEGPA" when doing a "show config". I guess this means that you can't boot up over it. It auto negotiates to 1000Mbit full duplex when connected to a Gigabit Netgear switch. On bootup it gets configured after a PowerStorm 350 graphics device configures. When used with VMScluster SCS traffic it gets configured right after the internal Fast Ethernet port, before the 350. It shows up as EWB0 as compared to the internal EWA0. I was looking at the Multimedia Services information and I see that it supports audio for the XP1000 with a PCI card called "Compaq Creative Labs AudioPCI Card (also referred to as the Compaq Ensoniq AudioPCI Card)". I've looked on the Internet and there seems to be several Compaq AudioPCI cards, e.g. ES1371, Audio 128, 5200, etc. all using the ES1373 chipset. I see some with and some without a game port. Which one is the supported one? I also noticed that Multimedia Services supports the "AlphaStation Sound Card" (also known as the Microsoft Sound Board,and referred to as the MSB device) on the DIGITAL Personal Workstation 600au, and on previously shipped AlphaStation systems." The release notes mention that MMOV includes a mmov$essdriver driver to support the built-in audio on the Personal Workstations if some info is added to the sys$user_config.dat. I can confirm that this also works on the internal audio of the XP1000, it creates a device AUA0: which works with the audio play programs. So I may not buy an audio PCI card, but I would like to have the output audio of the CD-ROM available. -- Vance Haemmerle ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.084 ************************