INFO-VAX Wed, 01 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 530 Contents: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! (was: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours The Minimum You Need to Know About SOA - A review Re: The Minimum You Need to Know About SOA - A review Re: WRITEV does not work Re: WRITEV does not work Re: WRITEV does not work ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 05:44:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Rod Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Message-ID: > > OMSAIS tool (Alpha to Integrity translator) > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsais.html FYI, HP-published version of V/A OMSAIS V2 as of Sep/2008 doesn't support translating binaries generated from the OpenVMS/Alpha BASIC compiler. $ aest hworld.exe /aud %AEST-W-RTLNOTSUPP, programming language BASIC is not currently supported AEST (V2.0, Bld DEV_0.8/Aug 30 2006) %AEST-W-TRANSWARN, Translation completed with warnings -- review them before usi ng the output image hworld.bas: 1010 print "hello world" 1020 end ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:31:55 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Message-ID: On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 05:44:37 -0700, Rod wrote: >> > OMSAIS tool (Alpha to Integrity translator) >> >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsais.html > > FYI, HP-published version of V/A OMSAIS V2 as of Sep/2008 doesn't > support translating binaries generated from the OpenVMS/Alpha BASIC > compiler. > > $ aest hworld.exe /aud > %AEST-W-RTLNOTSUPP, programming language BASIC is not currently > supported AEST (V2.0, Bld DEV_0.8/Aug 30 2006) %AEST-W-TRANSWARN, > Translation completed with warnings -- review them before usi ng the > output image > > hworld.bas: > 1010 print "hello world" > 1020 end Rod, is that our version of AEST you are using? -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:35:10 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! (was: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test Message-ID: In article , "Richard Maher" writes: >Hi, > >> My primary desktop at home is an Alpha PWS. I also want an up to date >> browser. > >How about an up to date Word Processor? Spread Sheet? Calendar? > >Should HP Middle Management pour the money into OpenOffice or just let you >go for Google with your new Up to Date browser? > >Should we go for the volume market of placating WunderGreis VMS System >Managers so that they don't have to sully their desks with one of those >nasty little PCs or Macs? Or will *anyone* say "Hold on! What software is >actually running on the VMS servers that these guys manage?" And is it not >more important to keep that software on VMS then to port over a whole lot of >crap so as to make the challenging job of "Monitoring" easier? > >Please give me the demographic of any company's staff that will be browsing, >word-processing, and mailing with VMS! > >Then tell me how many of them access 3GL code and data hosted on VMS servers >on a daily basis. (And are soon to cease doing so as HP/VMS management have >given them no viable GUI or Web upgrade path :-( ) > Richard, Unfortunately this is the same mentallity which lost VMS all the database applications by insisting that VMS was just for the backend database. And then lost the backend databases because most companies wanted to run the backend and application layers on the same OS even if on separate machines. Also porting SeaMonkey or other desktop applications will undoubtedly involve porting various supporting applications and libraries which will aid others in porting other Unix applications. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Regards Richard Maher > > >"Rich Jordan" wrote in message >news:6ea70f99-2b0d-4a60-93b4-064fddc18a19@v28g2000hsv.googlegroups.com... >On Sep 30, 7:31 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >Koehler) wrote: >> In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: >> >> > Why on earth would VMS engr spend the resources to do this, I mean who >> > really >> > gives a tinkers damn? >> >> I do. I browse from VMS on a regular basis, without fear of some >> web site attacking me via IE loopholes. > >My primary desktop at home is an Alpha PWS. I also want an up to date >browser. At some point my VAXstation at work may no longer meet needs >and get replaced, probably by an XP1000 or DS10, at which point I'll >want a browser on it for work. > >Alphas have two major advantages right now for that task (over >itaniums). They are more available (hobbyist side, and to be fair, >also at work with real licenses) due to cost and 'hand me downs' from >ugprades, and they are much more amenable to use in an office >environment. Itaniums are bloody noisy and hot, even with the 'office >friendly' kits. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:29:59 GMT From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:41:58 -0700 (PDT), AEF wrote: > If you search SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN.COM you should be able to figure out > what each param is for. So, what's your opinion? A wrong template in V7.x? I was just curious about that and about historical variance (if any) of shutdown procedure parameters. Are you running a V6.x system? Is there that template? It's right or wrong? > Just search for substrings of the questions SHUTDOWN.COM as in the > command above and you will know the answer to your question. I did know that answer well before posting, and I'm almost sure that those parameters have never changed since day 1. I was just asking if there was someone willing to check the same thing in other releases as well. I'm not English native, maybe there was (is?) a communication problem... G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:33:54 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: <6%KEk.2879$U5.12077@newsb.telia.net> gerry77@no.spam.mail.com wrote: > On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:41:58 -0700 (PDT), AEF wrote: > > >> If you search SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN.COM you should be able to figure out >> what each param is for. > > So, what's your opinion? A wrong template in V7.x? I was just curious about > that and about historical variance (if any) of shutdown procedure parameters. > Are you running a V6.x system? Is there that template? It's right or wrong? > >> Just search for substrings of the questions SHUTDOWN.COM as in the >> command above and you will know the answer to your question. > > I did know that answer well before posting, and I'm almost sure that those > parameters have never changed since day 1. I was just asking if there was > someone willing to check the same thing in other releases as well. I'm not > English native, maybe there was (is?) a communication problem... > > G. > Well, it *is* a template. Why not just change it to suit your personal/site needs ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:58:25 GMT From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: <1gv6e4lo4g0e7aavvphpnnv0natgu8cluk@4ax.com> On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:33:54 GMT, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > Well, it *is* a template. Why not just change it > to suit your personal/site needs ? Actually, I've just done that. A template is a template is a template, but this does not mean that it shouldn't be as much correct as possible, given that upon installation it gets copied to SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM which, you know, is not a template... Or I'm supposed to spot all the template errors? Anyway I did discover that glitch while setting up a V4.7 (!) system which has no templates at all, and I was checking if parameters where the same as usual. Obviously I'm a Hobbyist, don't tell me to upgrade to something newer. G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:07:36 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com wrote: > So, what's your opinion? A wrong template in V7.x? I was just curious > about that and about historical variance (if any) of shutdown procedure > parameters. Are you running a V6.x system? Is there that template? It's > right or wrong? Whatever was the reason to change the template, in my opinion both do it wrong: p3 (disk rundown) is the same for SHUTDOWN and REBOOT, but should be YES for SHUTDOWN, NO for REBOOT. And p4 (run syshutdwn) should always be YES. Anyway, defining these two commands should be removed from the template: only in case of local attached terminal or LAT login they will work. Most people either login through remote (telnet,ssh) or in a X11 session: in those cases the shutdown or reboot will only start the shutdown and then leave the system in an inconsistent state. My definitions look like this: $ SHUTDOWN :== @CLUSTER$MANAGER:DETACH_SHUTDOWN $ REBOOT :== @CLUSTER$MANAGER:DETACH_REBOOT where the detach_*.com files start a detached process doing the shutdown/reboot, so they can be used without knowing how I'm logged in. -- Joseph Huber, http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 09:19:04 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: Craig A. Berry wrote: > > > Rich Jordan wrote: >> On Sep 30, 7:31 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> Koehler) wrote: >> >>> In article , "Tom >>> Linden" writes: >>> >>> >>>> Why on earth would VMS engr spend the resources to do this, I mean >>>> who really gives a tinkers damn? > > Anybody who actually uses their VMS systems, and thus might occasionally > want patches or new software, both of which are primarily distributed > over the web. For patches available without login, I use FETCH_HTTP running in batch. For other pathes and kits, I simply (and it's *realy* simple) use my PC as the "middleware". Download to my PC and FTP over to the VMS *server*... There is no professional reason today to try to run a browser directly on VMS. As an hobbyist it could make a nice experiment, but that's something else. JF Mezai wrote : > Providing basic/core desktop functionality is necessary for > an OS to survive today. You meen like z/OS ? Probably one of the (economicaly) most successfull OS'es today. Does it have a browser ? Or any other "desktop" tools ? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 2008 12:41:22 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: <6kh9fiF7rl3lU2@mid.individual.net> In article , Jan-Erik Söderholm writes: > JF Mezai wrote : > > > Providing basic/core desktop functionality is necessary for > > an OS to survive today. > > You meen like z/OS ? Probably one of the (economicaly) most > successfull OS'es today. Does it have a browser ? Or any > other "desktop" tools ? IBM has a total package that includes desktop. Oh wait, so does HP. But we all know what the people here think of HP's desktop solution. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 2008 12:29:26 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > Digital years ago stopped supporting VMS on the desktop and trying to > deploy > it in that manner is like swimming upstream. There is so much that is > missing, > hell I can't even get a decent version of emacs. What about brower plugins, > spreadsheets, ...? So why do you bother following c.o.v and trying to sell PL/I to the VMS market? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 04:06:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <3a6f5e60-2e74-437a-9c0a-38516c46a352@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Sep 26, 12:17=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > > > > > > On Sep 26, 7:58=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <8d847f92-1f04-47ed-a827-bae920245...@x35g2000hsb.googlegro= ups.com>, > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > >> > On Sep 25, 8:58=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> >> In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b...@r66g2000hsg.google= groups.com>, > >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > >> >> > On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote= : > >> >> >> In article , > >> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig-= --remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > >> >> >> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uo= fs.edu > >> >> >> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >> >> >> >> Yes, he did. =A0Mere days before sighting land. =A0And at a p= oint where he > >> >> >> >> had actually travelled less than half the distance any educat= ed person > >> >> >> >> of the time would have known it would take to reach the far e= ast while > >> >> >> >> traveling in that direction. =A0Contrary to popular belief no= educated > >> >> >> >> person of the time aactually thought the earth was flat. =A0T= he ancient > >> >> >> >> greeks had determined it was round and had done a pretty good= job of > >> >> >> >> computing it's circumferance. =A0So, based on the amount of r= ations > > The Egyptians figured out a way to mummify their dead Pharoahs, but > > does anyone know it? > > Ummm... =A0Yeah. =A0I knew that in grade school. > > > Just because a people figured out something long ago, that doesn't > > mean it's still known centuries later. > > One would expect that something useful would continue ot be used. > What the Greeks knew in 100BC is not only still known today it is still > being taught today. > > > > > > >> >> >> >> Columbus left Spain with and the knowledge he is known to hav= e had > >> >> >> >> (and some he is suspected to have had) it becomes obvious tha= t "The > >> >> >> >> Far East" was never his target because assuming an all sea ro= ute in a > >> >> >> >> westerly direction, he left with insuffucient rations to make= the trip. > > >> >> >> > Columbus used a smaller value for the circumference of the Ear= th than > >> >> >> > the correct value, > > >> >> >> Smaller is an understatement as he missed it by more than 50%. = =A0A > >> >> >> navigator who made mistakes like that would hardly have lasted a= s > >> >> >> long as he had or had a reputaion supposedly as good as his. > > >> >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0even though other f= olks at the time had something > >> >> >> > quite close to the correct value. > > >> >> >> At the time? =A0Try more than 1400 years earlier. > > >> >> > Why does this matter? > > Because people forget. See above. > > People, as a whole, don't just forget. =A0And,a s I said above what the G= reeks > knew in 100 BC was still being taught at the time of Columbus and is stil= l > being taught today. =A0Nobody just forgot. > > > > >> >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0Was this intentional on his part to > >> >> >> > make his plans sound more realistic, or did he really believe = in the > >> >> >> > smaller value? > > >> >> >> Or did he have pre-knowledge of the existence of the North and S= outh > >> >> >> American (although obviously not under that name) continents and= merely > >> >> >> bilked Ferdinand and Isabella into financing his boondogle to se= what > >> >> >> was there!! > > Or did he want what was behind the box next to the beautiful Carol > > Maryl? > > Apparently King Ferdinand did because Columbus turned out to be just as > good a huckster as Monty Hall. > > > > > > > > >> >> > Or did he prefer dogs or cats? This is pure speculation. Maybe he= did? > >> >> > Maybe not. Is there any evidence at all to make what you suspect > >> >> > plausible? > > >> >> The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and sou= th > >> >> america. =A0The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference = of > >> >> the earth. =A0The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach t= hat > >> >> destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling = west. > >> >> Looks kinda like simple math to add them =A0up. =A0You do realize t= hat > >> >> Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. =A0Ot= hers, > >> >> refused. > >> > CBS refused Star Trek in favor of Lost in Space! > > >> Isn't that like being offered a bag of horse manure or a bag of cow ma= nure? > > Nope, and it's your loss. > > How is my belief that TV has been the biggest waste of scientific researc= h > the earth has ever seen my loss? =A0I find much more productive things to= do > with my time than to sit and gawk at "The vast wasteland". > > > > >> > So what great riches was he hoping to find in the Americas? > > >> Actually, I don't think greed was his motive. =A0I believe he wanted t= o > >> discover and explore a place he knew his European counterparts had nev= er > >> seen. =A0But no one was going to finance that. =A0So he made up a an a= bsurd > >> theory about reaching India and bilked Spain into financing it. =A0And > >> got called a hero for his effort. > > Well, I meant motive. > > Fine, so Bob K. came up with a poor example in your opinion. That > > doesn't necessarily invalidate his point, and I believe he had another > > example. Let's move on already. > > Consider the topic dropped. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. = =A0Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton =A0 | > Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include = =A0- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Correct: There were two basic kinds of people in 1492. 1) Educated people who knew that Eratosthenes (200 BC) proved the Earth was round including its approximate size. 2) Uneducated (but practical) people who lived by rules of thumb like "as you sail too far south, the North Start will disappear so you had better hug the coast". This last bit always worked when rounding the south of Africa but could not be used when crossing the Atlantic near (or south of) the equator. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:50:58 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: The Minimum You Need to Know About SOA - A review Message-ID: <7da45210-1497-46bb-82ae-6d6dd69aabed@u65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Willem Grooters has written about the most recent book in Roland Hughes 'The Minimum You Need To Know" series. Read the view at http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=08/09/27/8565098 Buy the book at http://www.booksonstlouis.com/miyounetokna1.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:47:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know About SOA - A review Message-ID: <96922b9e-1eb4-4fe9-8272-fa698869415e@h60g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 1, 3:50=A0am, IanMiller wrote: > Willem Grooters has written about the most recent book in Roland > Hughes 'The Minimum You Need To Know" series. > > Read the view athttp://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=3D08/09/27/85650= 98 > > Buy the book athttp://www.booksonstlouis.com/miyounetokna1.html I read this book and am now circulating two copies through our office. It is worth every penny. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:54:16 -0400 From: "John Reagan" Subject: Re: WRITEV does not work Message-ID: "Ramon Jimenez" wrote in message news:9d85db68-839f-410e-b3df-902c1dc1dc1b@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > We are orting an app from VAX to Itanium. > > I've one screen that shows info by using WRITEV. > > On the old plattform it works but in the new one only the first column > is written. > > If we use WRITELN the information is written, > > No change has been done to the code, only has been recompiled on the > new plattform > > Regards As others have suggested, please post some reproducer. At lease a snipet so I can see the datatypes? WRITEV is pretty much alternate entry points for the WRITE routine. They just write their results to the user's buffer instead of an open RMS file. There has not been a WRITE/WRITEV related bug reported on I64 and for years prior to that. Did you ever try to port this code to Alpha? While I think it isn't important here, I'd upgrade to V6.1. John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:00:17 -0400 From: "John Reagan" Subject: Re: WRITEV does not work Message-ID: "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:6kektkF7h5bdU2@mid.individual.net... > > WRITELN is Pascal. I suspect WRITEV is either some obscure old VMS > extension to Pascal or a locally written procedure which would go a > long way in explaining why it is apparently not upward compatable. > Not obscure to an OpenVMS Pascal programmer. Just the equivalent of ENCODE for you old obscure Fortran programmers. WRITEV was included in the Extended Pascal standard in 1989 with a slightly different name of WRITESTR. And since our compiler along with 90% of its features/extensions is from the 1980s, by definition, everything is old (including me). John ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 2008 12:34:58 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: WRITEV does not work Message-ID: <6kh93iF7rl3lU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "John Reagan" writes: > > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message > news:6kektkF7h5bdU2@mid.individual.net... >> >> WRITELN is Pascal. I suspect WRITEV is either some obscure old VMS >> extension to Pascal or a locally written procedure which would go a >> long way in explaining why it is apparently not upward compatable. >> > > Not obscure to an OpenVMS Pascal programmer. Just the equivalent of ENCODE > for you old obscure Fortran programmers. WRITEV was included in the > Extended Pascal standard in 1989 with a slightly different name of WRITESTR. > > And since our compiler along with 90% of its features/extensions is from the > 1980s, by definition, everything is old (including me). I didn't mean "obscure" in a bad way. Just that it was not a part of any Pascal Standard (defined or de facto). And the fact that a long time VMSer like Bob didn't seem to know it made it seem even more obscure. I started doing Pascal around 1980 and used it extensively for a number of years and still do some once in a while. I used VMS Pascal quite a bit in the past. When I started where it was the language du jour for the first couple of undergrad courses teaching programming basics. I had never seen or heard of WRITEV until this thread. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.530 ************************