INFO-VAX Fri, 03 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 534 Contents: Re: Charon-VAX "upgrade" (was DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS) Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! (was: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Re: mounting USB Sandisk Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street RE: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:44:09 +0200 From: Robert Boers Subject: Re: Charon-VAX "upgrade" (was DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS) Message-ID: Malcolm Dunnett wrote: [snip] > That would presumably be true for layered products, but unless HP has > changed their tune or makes some exception for Charon you would need to > purchase new operating system BASE and SMP licenses for the emulator boxes. [snip] HP lets you keep the existing BASE and SMP licenses when transferring to CHARON. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 14:30:04 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! (was: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test Message-ID: In article , "Richard Maher" writes: >Hi David, > >> Unfortunately this is the same mentallity which lost VMS all the database >> applications by insisting that VMS was just for the backend database. > >Which "database applications"? And how does being "just for the backend >database" lose dtabase applications? > Well you can start with Oracle applications both directly from Oracle and third-parties such as peoplesoft. Digital/Compaq told the companies writing database applications not to write them for VMS. VMS was just for the backend database. Digital/Compaqs view was that Windows was for the client, Unix was for the application layer and the secure VMS was for the backend database. >> And then lost the backend databases because most companies wanted to run >the >> backend and application layers on the same OS even if on separate >machines. > >Again, a couple of examples would be useful? Personally I have not seen that >many bigoted companies. (Sorry, I have seen the "get rid of VMS" ones just >not many "Well it can stay if we *only* have VMS".) > Not bigoted. Just sensible companies. Having the same OS for the application layer and the backend database layer meant reduced OS skills being required, meant reduced problems with mismatches of database versions ie you could upgrade both the application and backend database at the same time rather than having to wait until the same database version was available on both OSs (since obviously the application developer developed the application to work with the database version available on the platform he was developing on regardless of whether VMS supported that version). Also , especially in the case of third-party developers who had probably never tested their application with a VMS backend database, less support problems. >> Also porting SeaMonkey or other desktop applications will undoubtedly >involve >> porting various supporting applications and libraries which will aid >others in >> porting other Unix applications. > >Look, I'm not sure if everyone is deliberately missing the point or whether >you just don't get it. There are certain basic requirements for any modern OS. To my mind these include a web browser , email support and a modern GUI. At last we have movement on at least one of these. Porting fairly complex Unix applications such as SeaMonkey needs the build environment to also be ported - supporting applications and libraries which will aid in porting other Unix software - whether that porting is carried out by VMS development or by others. (It is a pity we are still waiting for a port of UNIX Fork which would probably make this easier). >VMS development has finite dollars Yes VMS development has finite dollars but I think providing what is now basic OS functionality together with easing porting of applications from other platforms is high priority. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >and every project >has an opportunity cost on another, potentially far more worthy, rival. I >would love all the software in the world to run on VMS! I'd love Donkey Kong >and Super Mario (showing my age :-) or FaceBook to be there so Operations >and System Management would have something to do while they're "Monitoring". >I just don't think we're gonna sell more VMS boxes, or hang on to the >customers we have by eliminating the need for System Management to have to >FTP something over from a Windows or *nix box! Do you? > >Until the self-serving low-life that are making these funding decisions are >*made* to disclose the number of customers that are being forced of VMS due >to no support for their existing (and future) 3GL applications then sadly >nothing is gonna change :-( Still 400,000 then eh? > >Once again, please ask yourself how many sites will have end-users (yes >business users) that will be running this new VMS Browser? Then ask yourself >what percentage of the installed base has these same end-users accessing 3GL >code and Rdb/RMS/Orrible data on their VMS Boxes (but not for much longer as >they're sick of being kicked in the teeth while those wankers come up with >VMS for the iPhone) > >Go one, try to webify your VMS/3GL application with the "solution(s)" >proffered by VMS Middle Management! Forget that, just try to put a GUI on >your 3GL code in 2009! No? They're just legacy customers that don't matter >(unless we can use 'em as an excuse to snatch a few more license-payer >dollars)? Welcome to the IMM team :-( > >Maybe no users have PCs on their desks where you guys come from? I've been >at 3 Telcos, a couple of banks, local govt, retail, and all in 4 different >countries and funnily enough, I haven't seen one end-user or >business-steak-holder or prchasing officer that's gonna give a shit that >some System Manager doesn't have to FTP something to their VMS box! > >Cheers Richard Maher > > wrote in message >news:gbvn9e$ar9$1@south.jnrs.ja.net... >> In article , "Richard Maher" > writes: >> >Hi, >> > >> >> My primary desktop at home is an Alpha PWS. I also want an up to date >> >> browser. >> > >> >How about an up to date Word Processor? Spread Sheet? Calendar? >> > >> >Should HP Middle Management pour the money into OpenOffice or just let >you >> >go for Google with your new Up to Date browser? >> > >> >Should we go for the volume market of placating WunderGreis VMS System >> >Managers so that they don't have to sully their desks with one of those >> >nasty little PCs or Macs? Or will *anyone* say "Hold on! What software is >> >actually running on the VMS servers that these guys manage?" And is it >not >> >more important to keep that software on VMS then to port over a whole lot >of >> >crap so as to make the challenging job of "Monitoring" easier? >> > >> >Please give me the demographic of any company's staff that will be >browsing, >> >word-processing, and mailing with VMS! >> > >> >Then tell me how many of them access 3GL code and data hosted on VMS >servers >> >on a daily basis. (And are soon to cease doing so as HP/VMS management >have >> >given them no viable GUI or Web upgrade path :-( ) >> > >> >> Richard, >> >> Unfortunately this is the same mentallity which lost VMS all the database >> applications by insisting that VMS was just for the backend database. >> And then lost the backend databases because most companies wanted to run >the >> backend and application layers on the same OS even if on separate >machines. >> >> Also porting SeaMonkey or other desktop applications will undoubtedly >involve >> porting various supporting applications and libraries which will aid >others in >> porting other Unix applications. >> >> >> >> David Webb >> Security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University >> >> >> >> >> >Regards Richard Maher >> > >> > >> >"Rich Jordan" wrote in message >> >news:6ea70f99-2b0d-4a60-93b4-064fddc18a19@v28g2000hsv.googlegroups.com... >> >On Sep 30, 7:31 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> >Koehler) wrote: >> >> In article , "Tom >Linden" >> > writes: >> >> >> >> > Why on earth would VMS engr spend the resources to do this, I mean >who >> >> > really >> >> > gives a tinkers damn? >> >> >> >> I do. I browse from VMS on a regular basis, without fear of some >> >> web site attacking me via IE loopholes. >> > >> >My primary desktop at home is an Alpha PWS. I also want an up to date >> >browser. At some point my VAXstation at work may no longer meet needs >> >and get replaced, probably by an XP1000 or DS10, at which point I'll >> >want a browser on it for work. >> > >> >Alphas have two major advantages right now for that task (over >> >itaniums). They are more available (hobbyist side, and to be fair, >> >also at work with real licenses) due to cost and 'hand me downs' from >> >ugprades, and they are much more amenable to use in an office >> >environment. Itaniums are bloody noisy and hot, even with the 'office >> >friendly' kits. >> > >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:06:36 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Message-ID: On 3 okt, 02:29, AEF wrote: > On Oct 2, 6:50 pm, "H Vlems" wrote: > > > > > > > "AEF" schreef in berichtnews:4e1c5938-3bfd-482= 3-97ac-dacf7249f0e3@y79g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... > > > > Just in case anyone's interested, it works! My MicroVAX fleet has bee= n > > > running fine since 14-JUL-2008. No power supplies have been fried so > > > far. > > > > AEF > > > Umm, mine run on 230 V single phase... > > I'm not familiar with US mains power supplies. In the Netherlands we ha= ve > > single and 3-phase. > > 3-phase is: three live wires, one neutral and one ground. Five wires in > > total. Single phase is either just two wires, live and neutral or three= : > > live, neutral and ground. > > There is no potential =A0difference between the three live wires, thoug= h > > (since it's AC) they are out of phase. > > So, using a 3-phase connector (in the Netherlands), I can select one li= ve > > wire, plus neutral and ground and run any domestic device on it without= a > > problem, be it a VAX, an Alpha or a toaster. > > Unless US models have a different wiring scheme I fail to see how you c= an > > connect three live wires to a 3100? > > Hans > > Well, 208 is 120*3**0.5 and 120V is the normal nominal voltage in > American households and offices. > > They tell me it's 208V 3-phase. I have a power cord that has three > prongs surrounded by a sleeve. I plug that into the power strip > mounted just inside the door frame of the cabinet and it works! > > It looks like your 3-phase and my 3-phase are two different creatures. > > AEF- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven - > > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven - Yes it does. We get 400V between live wires. Live-to-Neutral is always 230 V. Did you have to change something inside the power supply of the VAX? Hans ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:40:54 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Message-ID: <6km4alF8a9ubU2@mid.individual.net> On 2008-10-03 02:29, "AEF" wrote: > Well, 208 is 120*3**0.5 and 120V is the normal nominal voltage in > American households and offices. > > They tell me it's 208V 3-phase. I have a power cord that has three > prongs surrounded by a sleeve. I plug that into the power strip > mounted just inside the door frame of the cabinet and it works! > > It looks like your 3-phase and my 3-phase are two different creatures. Not really -- you get 208 volts between *two* of the "live" wires (L1-L2, e.g.), i.e., you are running a "delta" three phase scheme, while Hans gets 230 volts between *one* of the "live" wires and the "neutral" wire (L1-N, e.g.), i.e., he is running a "Y" three phase scheme. Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 04:36:10 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Message-ID: On Oct 3, 3:06=A0am, H Vlems wrote: > On 3 okt, 02:29, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Oct 2, 6:50 pm, "H Vlems" wrote: > > > > "AEF" schreef in berichtnews:4e1c5938-3bfd-4= 823-97ac-dacf7249f0e3@y79g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... > > > > > Just in case anyone's interested, it works! My MicroVAX fleet has b= een > > > > running fine since 14-JUL-2008. No power supplies have been fried s= o > > > > far. > > > > > AEF > > > > Umm, mine run on 230 V single phase... > > > I'm not familiar with US mains power supplies. In the Netherlands we = have > > > single and 3-phase. > > > 3-phase is: three live wires, one neutral and one ground. Five wires = in > > > total. Single phase is either just two wires, live and neutral or thr= ee: > > > live, neutral and ground. > > > There is no potential =A0difference between the three live wires, tho= ugh > > > (since it's AC) they are out of phase. > > > So, using a 3-phase connector (in the Netherlands), I can select one = live > > > wire, plus neutral and ground and run any domestic device on it witho= ut a > > > problem, be it a VAX, an Alpha or a toaster. > > > Unless US models have a different wiring scheme I fail to see how you= can > > > connect three live wires to a 3100? > > > Hans > > > Well, 208 is 120*3**0.5 and 120V is the normal nominal voltage in > > American households and offices. > > > They tell me it's 208V 3-phase. I have a power cord that has three > > prongs surrounded by a sleeve. I plug that into the power strip > > mounted just inside the door frame of the cabinet and it works! > > > It looks like your 3-phase and my 3-phase are two different creatures. > > > AEF- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven - > > > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven - > > Yes it does. We get 400V between live wires. Live-to-Neutral is always > 230 V. > Did you have to change something inside the power supply of the VAX? > Hans No. I was concerned because the voltage specs are the following: Input voltage Automatically adjusting ac input. Range: 100 V ac to 120 V ac or 220 V ac to 240 V ac. Notice the "or". But it works anyway! I thought it probably would, but was concerned as we have only a few 120V power strips and only every 3rd cab or less. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 14:18:12 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Message-ID: "H Vlems" writes: >"AEF" schreef in bericht >news:4e1c5938-3bfd-4823-97ac-dacf7249f0e3@y79g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... >> >> Just in case anyone's interested, it works! My MicroVAX fleet has been >> running fine since 14-JUL-2008. No power supplies have been fried so >> far. >> >> AEF >Umm, mine run on 230 V single phase... >I'm not familiar with US mains power supplies. In the Netherlands we have >single and 3-phase. We went through this in a long thread months ago. In the US power supplied to homes is 120/240 volts through a center tapped transformer. Most things are wired from one of two hots to a neutral (the center tap) and get 120V. Larger items are connected between both hots and get 240V. Businesses usually get 3 phase power. The voltage is 120/208V. (there is also 277/480V for large consumers) There are 3 hots, a neutral and ground. The voltage between any hot and the neutral is 120V, and the voltage between any two hots is 208V. The 120V hot to neutral is the same as home power so ordinary things like coffee pots or Microvaxes will still work. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:55:04 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: MicroVAX model 3100 on 208V 3-phase power Message-ID: <_eSdnfUJYowz3XvVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com> Michael Moroney wrote: > "H Vlems" writes: > > >> "AEF" schreef in bericht >> news:4e1c5938-3bfd-4823-97ac-dacf7249f0e3@y79g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... >>> Just in case anyone's interested, it works! My MicroVAX fleet has been >>> running fine since 14-JUL-2008. No power supplies have been fried so >>> far. >>> >>> AEF > >> Umm, mine run on 230 V single phase... >> I'm not familiar with US mains power supplies. In the Netherlands we have >> single and 3-phase. > > We went through this in a long thread months ago. In the US power > supplied to homes is 120/240 volts through a center tapped transformer. > Most things are wired from one of two hots to a neutral (the center tap) > and get 120V. Larger items are connected between both hots and get 240V. > > Businesses usually get 3 phase power. The voltage is 120/208V. (there is > also 277/480V for large consumers) There are 3 hots, a neutral and ground. > The voltage between any hot and the neutral is 120V, and the voltage > between any two hots is 208V. The 120V hot to neutral is the same as home > power so ordinary things like coffee pots or Microvaxes will still work. The 277/480V service is not so much for "large consumers" as for customers operating equipment that requires those voltages. Those big Liebert air conditioners in your computer room may require 277/480V. Customers with this service generally also have 120V for lighting, coffee pots, desktop computers, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:30:57 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: mounting USB Sandisk Message-ID: <6km4akF8a9ubU1@mid.individual.net> On 2008-10-02 21:21, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Michael Unger wrote: >> [...] >> >> Well -- memory "cards" based on Flash memory rather than on "cards" of >> punched paper ... > > Well, some of us old farts remember cards! [...] I still have a lot -- excellent as a bookmark: very thin, rather robust, and you can even write remarks onto them ... Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:47:15 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: In article <951bdbee-5d8d-40eb-9bdf-8aecc46c9add@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > This reminds me of an episode of The Far Side in which you see > Einstein standing back and looking at the result of having scribbled a > bunch of equations on a blackboard with the last one on the bottom > right saying > > t = $ [or it might have been "time = $"] Let's see. Power is energy per time: P = W/t (standard SI symbols for power, energy and time) Time is money and knowledge is power. So: K = W/M (K=knowledge; M=money) Solving for money, we get: M = W/K In other words, as knowledge approaches zero, money approaches infinity, regardless of the energy expended. That might have something to do with salaries on Wall Street. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 2008 09:30:05 GMT From: "David Weatherall" Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <6km70sF8lh98U1@mid.individual.net> Neil Rieck wrote: > For the longest time, people in the financial sector claimed they are > smart while the rest of us are dumb. (Try getting an official > explanation of "derivatives" without the usual insider lingo and > you'll see what I mean). So it turns out that these people are not as > smart as they claim, which is not the same as criminal (lthough we do > have crimes involving criminal damage to society or its citizens). > > Some people say this mess was created (in part) by the synoptic view > of Alan Greenspan who was repeatedly warned about the sub-prime bubble > in 2002. But Greenspan knew better... > > http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09192008/profile.html (be sure to > watch the video) > > Other people say this mess was caused (in part) by people clinging to > their ideologies rather than meeting in the middle after a diplomatic > dialog followed by debate. > > http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html (be sure to > watch the video) > > If this crisis brings the Western-world together in a dialog about why > we are running stock markets like casinos, then this crisis might be a > good thing. > > On the flip side, these financial problems seem to come around every > 10 years so lets hope that this event isn't as bad as the crash of > 1929 which was made worse by the US Federal Government doing almost > nothing. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ Thanks for the link Neil. I watched the one with Bacevich (both parts) and found it very interesting. I was intrigued to see an American finally give Pr. Carter some credit. I might even buy the book :) Cheers - Dave. -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:40:34 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <00A808AB.66FFA81B@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <951bdbee-5d8d-40eb-9bdf-8aecc46c9add@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Oct 2, 8:15 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article , Mark McIntyre writes: >> >> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >> >> BUT, for anyone to really understand, they first need to understand just >> >> what money is. I doubt that many do. I've tried to get people to look >> >> at this without the political blinders of accusation but they refuse to >> >> look at it objectively because the answer is so outlandish they find it >> >> incredulous. >> >> >I agree with what you're saying, but "incredulous" doesn't mean what I >> >think you think it means... >> >> As far as I knew, it meant 'unwilling to be or not able to be believed'. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) >> >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > >By the symmetric law of equality, if a = b, than b = a. > >Therefore, since time = money, money = time. > >So how does this help? Not at all. Not even close. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 04:38:51 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: On Oct 3, 6:40=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <951bdbee-5d8d-40eb-9bdf-8aecc46c9...@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.= com>, AEF writes: > > > > >On Oct 2, 8:15 pm, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article , Mark M= cIntyre writes: > > >> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > >> >> BUT, for anyone to really understand, they first need to understand= just > >> >> what money is. =A0I doubt that many do. =A0I've tried to get people= to look > >> >> at this without the political blinders of accusation but they refus= e to > >> >> look at it objectively because the answer is so outlandish they fin= d it > >> >> incredulous. > > >> >I agree with what you're saying, but "incredulous" doesn't mean what = I > >> >think you think it means... > > >> As far as I knew, it meant 'unwilling to be or not able to be believed= '. > > >> -- > >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)= TMESIS(dot)COM > > >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional pr= otection > >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be= . (NJSC) > > >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet artic= le outside > >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this c= opyright > >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > > >By the symmetric law of equality, if a =3D b, than b =3D a. > > >Therefore, since time =3D money, money =3D time. > > >So how does this help? > > Not at all. =A0Not even close. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TME= SIS(dot)COM > > ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional prote= ction > no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (= NJSC) > > Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet article = outside > of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copy= right > notice, disclaimer and quotations. Fine, don't enlighten us. You said you tried to enlighten people yet you refuse to here. OK. Did you know that everything you know is wrong? ;-) (From the Firesign Theatre album called "Everything You Know is Wrong" AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 04:42:28 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <1b50b170-2a61-4916-a592-c01398ee2c75@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 3, 5:30=A0am, "David Weatherall" wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: > > > > > > > For the longest time, people in the financial sector claimed they are > > smart while the rest of us are dumb. (Try getting an official > > explanation of "derivatives" without the usual insider lingo and > > you'll see what I mean). So it turns out that these people are not as > > smart as they claim, which is not the same as criminal (lthough we do > > have crimes involving criminal damage to society or its citizens). > > > Some people say this mess was created (in part) by the synoptic view > > of Alan Greenspan who was repeatedly warned about the sub-prime bubble > > in 2002. But Greenspan knew better... > > >http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09192008/profile.html(be sure to > > watch the video) > > > Other people say this mess was caused (in part) by people clinging to > > their ideologies rather than meeting in the middle after a diplomatic > > dialog followed by debate. > > >http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html(be sure to > > watch the video) > > > If this crisis brings the Western-world together in a dialog about why > > we are running stock markets like casinos, then this crisis might be a > > good thing. No, because there are too many innocent losers. There are many people are losing their homes and others losing equity (due to all the newly empty homes near them). Also, many businesses are losing customers. And then there is the potentially, if not likely, big cost to taxpayers. No, not a good thing. > > > On the flip side, these financial problems seem to come around every > > 10 years so lets hope that this event isn't as bad as the crash of > > 1929 which was made worse by the US Federal Government doing almost > > nothing. > > > Neil Rieck > > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > > Ontario, Canada. > >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > > Thanks for the link Neil. I watched the one with Bacevich (both parts) > and found it very interesting. I was intrigued to see an American > finally give Pr. Carter some credit. I might even buy the book :) > > Cheers - Dave. > > -- AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:23:05 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <48e60f57$0$9653$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> AEF wrote: > No, because there are too many innocent losers. There are many people > are losing their homes and others losing equity (due to all the newly > empty homes near them). Also, many businesses are losing customers. > And then there is the potentially, if not likely, big cost to > taxpayers. No, not a good thing. The media make it look like people can't live anymore. Have banks started to lower people's credit card limits ? Are small businesses *REALLY* unable to use their lines of credit anymore ? I realise that the housing market is in shambles and this affects the value of homes of people who pay their mortgages normally, and if the value of home goes below the value of the mortgage, the bank may decide to foreclose. (which is one reason banks in most other countries don't lend 100% of the value of the home). But have banks REALLY REALLY stopped offering loans to people and businesses ? The biggest leveraged buyout in history (a pension plan + a bunch of US banks getting together to buy Bell Canada and make it private) is still on. That is something like 35 billion of credit that US banks are to offer to the ontario teachers pension plan. Well Fargo still has some cash because it just signed the deal to buy Wachovia for 15 billion. Chase got a few thousand branched a whole lot of new customers for a mere 1.9 billion. What I see happening in the USA is that Wall Street banks (with a few other big ones like Wells Fargo) are taking advantage of the situation to help transform the USA banking sector into a new condensed version with a few very large nationwide banks, a culmination of the long process that began when the USA was made up of small local banks that could only operate within their state. From a stability point of view, this is probably better and probably required. And by having banks that have large retail operations, they become self funded and can use their own customer's deposits to issue loans/mortgages instead of borrowing from some other bank. But it is clear in my mind that the wall street banks are taking advantage of the situtation and making things look far worse than they really are to force the government to cough up the 700 billion in cold hard freshly printed cash. Converting all those bonds of uncertain value into cash would let them comtinue their current buying spree and see continuation of the concentration of the banking sector. And this woudl explain why Washington is so focused on helping Wall Street Banks since the eventual goal is to have them rule the banking sector and thus no need to bail out the smaller banks which will cease to exist anyways. Many analysts have stated that the governmnet simply needed to change some accounting rules to allow banks to value bonds at their normal value for a couple of years, thus avoiding the requirement to write the value down until the bond matures. This would cost a hell of a lot less to taxpayers. And if Chase is unwilling to lend to Bank of Podunk, couldn't Bank of Podunk borrow from the governmnet (Fed, or via Fanny/Freddie) for mortgages ? (isn't that what those banks did in the past anyways ?) And if banks had not been so quick to foreclose, this whole problem wouldn't exist. Yes, many mortgages would not be performing as well, but that is still much better that a mortgage that doesn't perform at all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:38:25 -0400 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <062401c92554$ee3103c0$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:23 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street > > > I realise that the housing market is in shambles and this > affects the value of homes of people who pay their mortgages > normally, and if the value of home goes below the value of > the mortgage, the bank may decide to foreclose. (which is one > reason banks in most other countries don't lend 100% of the > value of the home). > In the US a bank cannot foreclose because the market value of the home has fallen below the mortgaged debt!!! They foreclose when the payment of the mortgage debt is delinquent. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 2008 13:24:31 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <6kmkofF8m3t7U1@mid.individual.net> In article <062401c92554$ee3103c0$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:23 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street >> >> >> I realise that the housing market is in shambles and this >> affects the value of homes of people who pay their mortgages >> normally, and if the value of home goes below the value of >> the mortgage, the bank may decide to foreclose. (which is one >> reason banks in most other countries don't lend 100% of the >> value of the home). >> > In the US a bank cannot foreclose because the market value of the home has > fallen below the mortgaged debt!!! They foreclose when the payment of the > mortgage debt is delinquent. And when you have people working at McDonald's for minimum wage buying $500,000 houses what do you exepct to happen? Just how naive do you have to be when you take that 2% Adjustable Rate Mortgage to actually believe it will stay where it is or go down? The banks may carry some of the blame (although the government trying to use them for more of its liberal social engineering probably carries a large piece of that) but the individuals who thought they were going to get something for nothing carry the majority of the blame. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:52:07 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: In article , AEF writes: >On Oct 3, 6:40=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <951bdbee-5d8d-40eb-9bdf-8aecc46c9...@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.= >com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> >> >On Oct 2, 8:15 pm, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >> In article , Mark M= >cIntyre writes: >> >> >> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >> >> >> BUT, for anyone to really understand, they first need to understand= > just >> >> >> what money is. =A0I doubt that many do. =A0I've tried to get people= > to look >> >> >> at this without the political blinders of accusation but they refus= >e to >> >> >> look at it objectively because the answer is so outlandish they fin= >d it >> >> >> incredulous. >> >> >> >I agree with what you're saying, but "incredulous" doesn't mean what = >I >> >> >think you think it means... >> >> >> As far as I knew, it meant 'unwilling to be or not able to be believed= >'. >> >> >> -- >> >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)= >TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional pr= >otection >> >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be= >.. (NJSC) >> >> >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet artic= >le outside >> >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this c= >opyright >> >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. >> >> >By the symmetric law of equality, if a =3D b, than b =3D a. >> >> >Therefore, since time =3D money, money =3D time. >> >> >So how does this help? >> >> Not at all. =A0Not even close. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TME= >SIS(dot)COM >> >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional prote= >ction >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (= >NJSC) >> >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet article = >outside >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copy= >right >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > >Fine, don't enlighten us. You said you tried to enlighten people yet >you refuse to here. OK. > I assume he is referring to the fact that money is a fiction - it is just an IOU note without any backing If I printed a piece of paper and wrote on it "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of one DavidPound" and then told you that I would only actually change it for similar pieces of paper or intrinsically worthless metal tokens you would rightly tell me to get lost. However that is what the Bank of England does everyday but they have convinced everybody that the pound is actually worth real goods. In the dim and distant past paper currencies were backed with quantities of precious metals - gold or silver - but nowadays their only value is what everybody agrees they are worth. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Did you know that everything you know is wrong? ;-) > >(From the Firesign Theatre album called "Everything You Know is Wrong" > >AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:21:56 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <584ec0b9-48ef-4bac-8c66-cfbb444c7978@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Oct 3, 9:52=A0am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , AEF writes: > > > > >On Oct 3, 6:40=3DA0am, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article <951bdbee-5d8d-40eb-9bdf-8aecc46c9...@q9g2000hsb.googlegrou= ps.=3D > >com>, AEF writes: > > >> >On Oct 2, 8:15 pm, VAXman- =3D...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> >> In article , Mar= k M=3D > >cIntyre writes: > > >> >> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > >> >> >> BUT, for anyone to really understand, they first need to underst= and=3D > > just > >> >> >> what money is. =3DA0I doubt that many do. =3DA0I've tried to get= people=3D > > to look > >> >> >> at this without the political blinders of accusation but they re= fus=3D > >e to > >> >> >> look at it objectively because the answer is so outlandish they = fin=3D > >d it > >> >> >> incredulous. > > >> >> >I agree with what you're saying, but "incredulous" doesn't mean wh= at =3D > >I > >> >> >think you think it means... > > >> >> As far as I knew, it meant 'unwilling to be or not able to be belie= ved=3D > >'. > > >> >> -- > >> >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0V= AXman(at)=3D > >TMESIS(dot)COM > > >> >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional= pr=3D > >otection > >> >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may= be=3D > >.. (NJSC) > > >> >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =3DA0Publication of _this_ usenet = artic=3D > >le outside > >> >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including thi= s c=3D > >opyright > >> >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > > >> >By the symmetric law of equality, if a =3D3D b, than b =3D3D a. > > >> >Therefore, since time =3D3D money, money =3D3D time. > > >> >So how does this help? > > >> Not at all. =3DA0Not even close. > > >> -- > >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0VAXm= an(at)TME=3D > >SIS(dot)COM > > >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional pr= ote=3D > >ction > >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be= . (=3D > >NJSC) > > >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =3DA0Publication of _this_ usenet art= icle =3D > >outside > >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this c= opy=3D > >right > >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > > >Fine, don't enlighten us. You said you tried to enlighten people yet > >you refuse to here. OK. > > I assume he is referring to the fact that money is a fiction - it is just= an > IOU note without any backing If I printed a piece of paper and wrote on i= t > "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of one DavidPound" and the= n > told you that I would only actually change it for similar pieces of paper= or > intrinsically worthless metal tokens =A0you would rightly tell me to get = lost. > However that is what the Bank of England does everyday but they have > convinced everybody that the pound is actually worth real goods. > In the dim and distant past paper currencies were backed with quantities = of > precious metals - gold or silver - but nowadays their only value is what > everybody agrees they are worth. > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > [...] OK, if you have any extra "fiction", please send it to me. I'll give you my address offline. :-) AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:42:14 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: AEF wrote: > On Oct 3, 5:30 am, "David Weatherall" wrote: >> Neil Rieck wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> For the longest time, people in the financial sector claimed they are >>> smart while the rest of us are dumb. (Try getting an official >>> explanation of "derivatives" without the usual insider lingo and >>> you'll see what I mean). So it turns out that these people are not as >>> smart as they claim, which is not the same as criminal (lthough we do >>> have crimes involving criminal damage to society or its citizens). >>> Some people say this mess was created (in part) by the synoptic view >>> of Alan Greenspan who was repeatedly warned about the sub-prime bubble >>> in 2002. But Greenspan knew better... >>> http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09192008/profile.html(be sure to >>> watch the video) >>> Other people say this mess was caused (in part) by people clinging to >>> their ideologies rather than meeting in the middle after a diplomatic >>> dialog followed by debate. >>> http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html(be sure to >>> watch the video) >>> If this crisis brings the Western-world together in a dialog about why >>> we are running stock markets like casinos, then this crisis might be a >>> good thing. > > No, because there are too many innocent losers. There are many people > are losing their homes and others losing equity (due to all the newly > empty homes near them). Also, many businesses are losing customers. > And then there is the potentially, if not likely, big cost to > taxpayers. No, not a good thing. INNOCENT?? I doubt it very much! When you buy a house and mortgage it, you are supposed to know that you must make monthly payments of X dollars per month for Y years. You are supposed to have an income sufficient to make those payments as well as feed your family, pay taxes, health care, etc, etc. The customary penalty for failure to pay is to lose the house! The agreement you sign says all this and, by signing your name, you agree to it. Nothing guarantees the resale value of your new home! The selling price will depend on the condition of the property, the current market, the availability of credit, the property taxes that must be paid, the condition of neighboring property, etc, etc. To say that the resale value will fluctuate can be one of those major understatements. . . . The current "crisis" appears to be the result of poor judgment on the part of just about everyone involved. People seem to have purchased homes and taken mortgages at the limit of, or somewhat beyond, their ability to pay. Loan officers appear to have given insufficient weight to the borrower's present and future ability to pay the interest and principal! They also appear to have ignored the possible changes in the market value of the property securing the loan! "Not a good thing!" is a statement I think we can all agree with. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:52:17 -0700 From: Marty Kuhrt Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <8vydnZZGYoZf0HvVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@speakeasy.net> AEF wrote: > On Oct 3, 6:40 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <951bdbee-5d8d-40eb-9bdf-8aecc46c9...@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> >>> On Oct 2, 8:15 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> In article , Mark McIntyre writes: >>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>>>> BUT, for anyone to really understand, they first need to understand just >>>>>> what money is. I doubt that many do. I've tried to get people to look >>>>>> at this without the political blinders of accusation but they refuse to >>>>>> look at it objectively because the answer is so outlandish they find it >>>>>> incredulous. >>>>> I agree with what you're saying, but "incredulous" doesn't mean what I >>>>> think you think it means... >>>> As far as I knew, it meant 'unwilling to be or not able to be believed'. >>>> -- >>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>>> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection >>>> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) >>>> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside >>>> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright >>>> notice, disclaimer and quotations. >>> By the symmetric law of equality, if a = b, than b = a. >>> Therefore, since time = money, money = time. >>> So how does this help? >> Not at all. Not even close. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection >> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) >> >> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside >> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright >> notice, disclaimer and quotations. > > Fine, don't enlighten us. You said you tried to enlighten people yet > you refuse to here. OK. > > Did you know that everything you know is wrong? ;-) > > (From the Firesign Theatre album called "Everything You Know is Wrong" > > AEF We're all Bozos on this bus. (Another Firesign classic) Just substitute cov for bus, and we're set. ;^) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:05:23 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <00A808E1.28AF9D7A@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <6kmkofF8m3t7U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >{...snip...} > >And when you have people working at McDonald's for minimum wage buying >$500,000 houses what do you exepct to happen? Just how naive do you >have to be when you take that 2% Adjustable Rate Mortgage to actually >believe it will stay where it is or go down? The banks may carry some >of the blame (although the government trying to use them for more of >its liberal social engineering probably carries a large piece of that) >but the individuals who thought they were going to get something for >nothing carry the majority of the blame. Alleluia brother! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:16:22 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <00A808E2.B1C3B8E6@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >{...snip...} >I assume he is referring to the fact that money is a fiction - it is just an >IOU note without any backing If I printed a piece of paper and wrote on it >"I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of one DavidPound" and then >told you that I would only actually change it for similar pieces of paper or >intrinsically worthless metal tokens you would rightly tell me to get lost. >However that is what the Bank of England does everyday but they have >convinced everybody that the pound is actually worth real goods. BINGO. It started as fractional reserve banking; however, the fraction real money that banks have actually held on deposit have shrunk to near 0! There was a time the reserve amount was stipulated by governmental decree but in many cases (in fact in the UK) there's no requirement for any reserve! Fiat currencies (GBPs, dollars, euros, yen, etc.) are merely government decreed IOUs the banks can circulate when they create their money. >In the dim and distant past paper currencies were backed with quantities of >precious metals - gold or silver - but nowadays their only value is what >everybody agrees they are worth. They're worth everybody's ability to repay their debts which is, for all intents and purposes, all money is today -- debt. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 14:42:09 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Message-ID: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" writes: >"Michael Moroney" wrote in message >news:gc3blj$mmq$2@pcls4.std.com... >> "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" writes: >> >>> If you look in sys$examples there is a USB section. There is a >>> document >>>on using UGDRIVER. If you look in there you will find a really complete >>>and >>>detailed write up on how devices get matched. >> >> Forrest, you mentioned in another post that you didn't get any feedback or >> bug reports re your usb driver. Well I have something. >> >> Your UG_EXAMPLE in SYS$EXAMPLES is a little program for Rat Shack terminal >> adapters. Not having that I tried it with a Digiboard 16 port terminal >> mux, changing the vender ID as needed. For the SENSMODE $QIO specifying >> UG$_GET_PIPE_COUNT I get an absurd value returned. In addition the >> UG$_GET_PIPE_HANDLES calls ACCVIOs even if I patch the pipe count to a >> reasonable value. Are the USB QIOs specific to the specific terminal >> adapter or for any USB widget? >> > The digi device is werid in so many ways as to not be funny. You have >to do a >whole raft of setup steps before the data it gives back make any sense. Is this a one-time setup or something that has to be done every time? Does the VMS driver (TXDx:) do the correct thing with them? I ask because we're using a few of them. Two show up with some ports offline some online. They work OK from PCs. > If you get a crash from get pipe handles I would like to see it. If you >have a support >contract file a problem report as well. Makes it easier to get a fix >checked in. In either >case I need to see the dump. This isn't a system crash, just the $QIO SENSEMODE/UG$_GET_PIPE_HANDLES returns an ACCVIO status. We do have a support contract so if there is something special to get all the ports working on a Digi box using the VMS terminal driver I can open a problem report. The UG_EXAMPLE.C stuff is just me playing, however. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:03:27 -0400 From: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" Subject: Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Message-ID: > Is this a one-time setup or something that has to be done every time? > Does > the VMS driver (TXDx:) do the correct thing with them? I ask because > we're > using a few of them. Two show up with some ports offline some online. > They work OK from PCs. > That needs to get reported, we need to know a fair amount about them as Digi shipped products with the same order number with 100% different electronics. OK, so here at a high level is what happens. We based on vendor and product ID's decide if we need to load UCE or UCF driver. These driver know the correct initialization sequence for the controller. One of the things it does if determine how many ports there are and how to map them to terminal ports. This is not nearly as neat and clean as you would expect. Lots of steps and lots of ways to get it wrong. I did not write UCE or UCF drivers so I don't have all the details I handed off all the USB to RS232 drivers to someone else after I wrote the code for the PL2303 and FTDI 232 devices. >> If you get a crash from get pipe handles I would like to see it. If >> you >>have a support >>contract file a problem report as well. Makes it easier to get a fix >>checked in. In either >>case I need to see the dump. > > This isn't a system crash, just the $QIO SENSEMODE/UG$_GET_PIPE_HANDLES > returns an ACCVIO status. > > We do have a support contract so if there is something special to get all > the ports working on a Digi box using the VMS terminal driver I can open a > problem report. The UG_EXAMPLE.C stuff is just me playing, however. > Fine I wanted to make sure there was not a nasty crash in there that I did not know about. There is nothing about the weird pipe count I can do, the device apparently returned a crappy value and I just passed it along. But please report this to the support organization the digi controllers are supported and are supposed to work correctly. The only way this will get fixed is opening a support call. Forrest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:18:58 -0400 From: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" Subject: Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Message-ID: > > But please report this to the support organization the digi controllers > are supported and are supposed to work correctly. The only way this > will get fixed is opening a support call. If you file a report do the following. 1) UCM set log/new 2) Unplug the digi controller and plug it back in 3) UCM sho event/type=all/out=config_error.txt Include this file in the problem report. It will tell us what went on as part of the configuration of the device. Forrest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:30:15 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Message-ID: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" writes: >> Is this a one-time setup or something that has to be done every time? >> Does >> the VMS driver (TXDx:) do the correct thing with them? I ask because >> we're >> using a few of them. Two show up with some ports offline some online. >> They work OK from PCs. >> > That needs to get reported, we need to know a fair amount about them as >Digi shipped products with the same order number with 100% different >electronics. OK, will do. > OK, so here at a high level is what happens. We based on vendor and >product ID's decide if we need to load UCE or UCF driver. These >driver know the correct initialization sequence for the controller. One >of the things it does if determine how many ports there are and how to >map them to terminal ports. This is not nearly as neat and clean as you >would expect. Lots of steps and lots of ways to get it wrong. Oh, one of those. >> This isn't a system crash, just the $QIO SENSEMODE/UG$_GET_PIPE_HANDLES >> returns an ACCVIO status. >> >> We do have a support contract so if there is something special to get all >> the ports working on a Digi box using the VMS terminal driver I can open a >> problem report. The UG_EXAMPLE.C stuff is just me playing, however. >> > Fine I wanted to make sure there was not a nasty crash in there that I >did not know >about. There is nothing about the weird pipe count I can do, the device >apparently >returned a crappy value and I just passed it along. Having done device drivers myself, I perfectly understand GIGO. However, not knowing too much detail of USB, I would think that something that is common to any USB device like the number of pipes would be the same everywhere. But if it doesn't, it doesn't. > But please report this to the support organization the digi controllers >are supported and are supposed to work correctly. The only way this >will get fixed is opening a support call. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.534 ************************