INFO-VAX Sat, 11 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 549 Contents: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Re: Group buy! (50 RX2600s on eBay) Re: Group buy! (50 RX2600s on eBay) Re: Group buy! (50 RX2600s on eBay) LS1-11 Graphics Boards Re: LS1-11 Graphics Boards Re: LS1-11 Graphics Boards Re: LS1-11 Graphics Boards Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Re: Starting a CDE session over SSH? Re: Starting a CDE session over SSH? VMS Update going out on Wednesday ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) From: PR Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Message-ID: On Oct 9, 7:09=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <355b41ea-08b9-4a37-873d-a72620a88...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.= com>, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 PR writes: > > > > > On Oct 8, 7:46=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <871eaafc-2d55-41cd-82c2-cd1f9882b...@z6g2000pre.googlegrou= ps.com>, > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 PR writes: > > >> > On Oct 5, 4:53=A0am, "Richard Maher" > >> > wrote: > >> >> Hi Michael, > > >> >> > Then why do you bother with VMS at all? > > >> >> 'cos it's the best server on the planet you fucking idiot! > > >> >> If only the incompetent, self-serving, vms-appologists at HP would = open the > >> >> flood-gates and let the users *INTEGRATE* their VMS apps with this > >> >> feature-rich, cheap, ubiquitous, full-function client platform(s) t= hen maybe > >> >> we might get somewhere? > > >> >> Regards Richard Maher > > >> >> "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message > > >> >>news:gc9spk$1lc$00$1@news.t-online.com... > > >> >> > Richard Maher schrieb: > > >> >> > > Personally, I love FireFox and Firebug! I love Flex (and FlexBu= ilder)! I > >> >> > > love .NET (a bit less)! Silverlight is getting better! I love J= ava > >> >> Applets! > >> >> > > (and the new 1.6_10 jnlp deployment options) I love Chrome's Ap= plication > >> >> > > Launch shortcuts! I love HTML/DOM/Javascript! I love the price = of > >> >> laptops, > >> >> > > PCs and Macs! I have no problem with Windows! *And so do the us= ers!* > > >> >> > Then why do you bother with VMS at all? > >> > Amen brother =A00 thou do preach to the choir! > >> > I've said it before and I will say it yet again, from a dead zero > >> > start, I've put in five VMS installations in a little less than a > >> > year, including the time to convert the darn software, spec out RX26= xx > >> > servers, install em, and even - get this - > >> > *get paid!* > >> > If 100 more people would get out there and evangelize VMS, a whole > >> > hell of a lot of GOOD things would happen. > > >> Yeah, that will be great great for youyr career. =A0I did it here for > >> years and I can still hear then snickering when I walk by in the hall > >> as they whisper to each other, "There goes our resident dinosaur". > >> I just recently had someone visiting the department on business look > >> at my Storageworks Cabinet and comment on it's obsoleteness. > > > I don't get laughed at, though people are often laughing with me. > > Keep telling yourself that. > I don't have to, my customers tell me that. Unless you are paying me, I don't honestly care if you laugh at me or not. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. It's a fact people will buy VMS . > > Especially customers who get what they need at a price that is fair > > and affordable. > > Most especially when we have figured out a way to outsmart the > > "common wisdom". Who needs "common" wisdom anyway? That =A0just pretty > > much means you are running with the herd - not that you are doing > > things "right". > > "right" is very hard to define but probably the best is delivering what > the customer wants. =A0How many want VMS anymore? > "Right" is not hard to define. Defining a solution that meets the criteria of what is "right" is hard. Too many times a business will get frustrated and just take the easy way - or the common wisdom. This is usually a foolish choice, as it wastes money, time, and talent. You assume people are asking for VMS, or else you are phrasing it that way as a strawman argument. Customer's could not care less about VMS, or WIndows, or z/OS or any other technical bit. They just want a solution that is affordable, reliable, works, and they can understand and use. If you build that solution on top of VMS, they will buy it. You can sell VMS very easily as part of the solution because it is backed by HP. If you are not capable of engineering a solution under VMS, then that is a different story. There are things that VMS does not do well; GUIs among them. If you need a GUI as part of your solution, use Macs, Linux machines, or Windows to provide the GUI. > >> > It is a GREAT server, and affordable. > > >> How is VMS more affordable than Windows? =A0We pay something like $300= -600 > >> a year and can run any and as much MS Server software as we want. =A0N= o doubt > >> it's a great server, but technical superiority has never been a requir= ement > >> in this industry. > > > Even with educational discounts, I fail to see how your $600 per > > person works. > > I didn't say per person. =A0$300-600(I don't know the exact amount as I > don't sign the check). Period. =A0And we get to install as many copies of > any OS and development product as we want. =A0We can even provide copies > to bona fide students that they can take with them when they leave. > Quite a difference from the VMS Edu Program even at its best. > There is no Microsoft License Program that lets an unlimited number of users all run Windows for $600, much less Windows and Office. Even U.T does not have a deal like that. And there is absolutely no program like that from Microsoft you can run a business on. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0And it *certainly* does not work for bus= iness, where > > discounts are more in the 20 to 30 percent range on "market priced" > > Microsoft products. > > Windows Vista or XP, A Windows Server license, a Windows Server CAL, > > and Exchange CAL, a Terminal Services CAL, MS Office license, > > AntiVirus license, and custom software license. > > I can put a small VMS system, and MacOS on the desktops (or LInux), in > > a site and make it all work for a heck of a lot less than the cost of > > Windos. > > And now we are back to the othewr problem with VMS that has been pointed > out here time and time again. =A0You have to rely on other OSes to fill i= n > all the holes. =A0That means additional cost, additional hardware and > additional needed expertise. > No you don't. You can put thin clients out there that act as terminal, even GUI based terminals, and go to town. You do have to invest in remote hardware. But since you have to invest in remote hardware for *any* solution, there is no difference here. And I don't have to invest in remote solutions that have license fees - Linux is free. Any mac ever made is licensed to run Mac OS. There are other choices. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 At least in the vertical markets where I sell my softwa= re. And > > it makes a hell of a difference the the bottom line in a small > > business - a concept foreign indeed to some of your colleagues in > > academia. > > I think others here will confirm that "small businesses" are not in > VMS's remaining target area. =A0In "small businesses" VMS can't possibly > compete with its main competitor, Linux. =A0A lot cheaper and a whole > lot easier to find the expertise needed to get it up and keep it there. > You can knock academia all you want but remember, it was the exposure to > Unix in academia that out it where it is today and VMS has completely > lost any of that exposure while MS is courting it constantly. =A0Guess > which one knows which side their bread is buttered on? > How many of those people who disagree are out selling? Those of us *selling* stuff are the only ones that really know. That is a real problem with this newsgroup by the way; people who feel their opinions are much more important than any old facts. Small to Medium Business is a really fast growing sector, IBM made enormous profits this quarter by targeting SMB. HP isn't doing to shabby either - look at the Critical Business Server unit. UCB *was* the driving force behind UNIX for a long time, until Bill Joy started Sun and Sun became the drive. AT&T SVSV was commercially successful too. But Unix was not a raging success until Linux, which was free. Academia is great, I don't dispute that. But there is a huge difference between the Academic and Business worlds. The Business world is more fun - and they pay you better. No tenure though... :) > > I will grant you that in large business settings, there are other > > operators that come into play and make it difficult to move in VMS and > > phase out Winders, but those factors are not present at all in the SMB > > world, and melt away in the face of hard cold facts in most rational > > large businesses. > > VMS is far from dead, it is easily sold into the right markets, and > > far from being ignored by HP sales reps. It is often not promoted > > "often not"!! =A0It is never promoted except to those who already know > about it. > Phsaw! HP's model depends upon business partners, and VMS is promoted to the business partners. > > because they do not understand it, nor do they have any idea how to > > evaluate it in a business situation. Ignorance like that, is easily > > corrected. The expertise and support *is* available from HP. > > That is very much at odds with the continuous comments here from people > who have been doing VMS for a lot longer than I have. =A0How many people > who are/were regular posters here have we seen leave the VMS fold, not > because they wanted to but because they have families to feed. > That is a misleading question, along the lines of "how many people here still make a living with punch cards?" I am sure *someone* must, but not most of us. Time change, and so does the vision for VMS. Few indeed would pay a million dollars for a VMS system today, but many will pay a few thousand. Yes, it would have been better ported to X86 than Itanium, bit IA64 has some serious advantages. > > Don't get me wrong, VMS is far from perfect, and in some ways, the > > existence of the hobbyist world is holding VMS back from being > > embraced by the business world. > > Now that's funny. =A0If it were not for the hobbyist program there would > be little more than a very small handful of machines still running. =A0I > would be willing to bet there are more hobbyist systems running that > commercial ones. =A0And hobbyist program or not, the business world does > not even know about VMS any more and those who do think it died years > ago. =A0And I have been told that to my face by someone at a Fortune 100 > company who was not at all willing to listen to any argument to the > contrary. > There is only a very tiny - and perhaps only borderline legal - hobbyist community for IBM mainframes, yet mainframes are flourishing. And in that community, there are even fewer indeed who rail about how terrible IBM is. I complain about IBM's support for SMB in the mainframe world, but that isn't the same as the vicious nasty comments you sometimes find here about HP. You statements are also easy to prove false; if the business world things VMS died years ago, how is it that a guy like me can sell five VMS installs in one year, part time, without even trying all that hard? Imagine what some of the people here could do if they didn't believe silly nonsense like "VMS" is dead. It certainly has *changed* and it is no longer what Ken Olsen thought it should be, but Olsen's vision has been proven flawed time and time again. Take it for what it is, on the platforms it is now designed to run on, and move forward. -Paul > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 It *is*= kinda cool to watch something > > old world, like a PDP-11 or a MicroVAX. But it is not presenting a > > great face to the potential buyers. =A0 YMMV. > > I often wonder if we have reached the point where there are now more > commercial PDP-11's running than VMS systems. =A0Because the VMS constant > is unchanging, we may never know. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. = =A0Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton =A0 | > Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include = =A0 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:28:56 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Message-ID: <48F00F68.DF29CAE1@spam.comcast.net> PR wrote: > > On Oct 5, 4:53 am, "Richard Maher" > wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > > > Then why do you bother with VMS at all? > > > > 'cos it's the best server on the planet you fucking idiot! > > > > If only the incompetent, self-serving, vms-appologists at HP would open the > > flood-gates and let the users *INTEGRATE* their VMS apps with this > > feature-rich, cheap, ubiquitous, full-function client platform(s) then maybe > > we might get somewhere? > > > > Regards Richard Maher > > > > "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message > > > > news:gc9spk$1lc$00$1@news.t-online.com... > > > > > Richard Maher schrieb: > > > > > > Personally, I love FireFox and Firebug! I love Flex (and FlexBuilder)! I > > > > love .NET (a bit less)! Silverlight is getting better! I love Java > > Applets! > > > > (and the new 1.6_10 jnlp deployment options) I love Chrome's Application > > > > Launch shortcuts! I love HTML/DOM/Javascript! I love the price of > > laptops, > > > > PCs and Macs! I have no problem with Windows! *And so do the users!* > > > > > Then why do you bother with VMS at all? > > Amen brother 0 thou do preach to the choir! > > I've said it before and I will say it yet again, from a dead zero > start, I've put in five VMS installations in a little less than a > year, including the time to convert the darn software, spec out RX26xx > servers, install em, and even - get this - > *get paid!* O.k. You've told us THAT you did it. Well Done! Congrats! Now, tell us HOW you did it. > If 100 more people would get out there and evangelize VMS, a whole > hell of a lot of GOOD things would happen. > It is a GREAT server, and affordable. Again, tell us HOW you did/do it. Success leaves clues. Find the clues, document the process and make it REPEATABLE! > Now if they would just hurry up with 8.4 so I could run the thing in > an Integrity Virtual Machine, boy would I ever be a happy duck! Why not run it on I64 "bare metal" and be even happier? (No PH-UX to deal with!) D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:10:36 -0700 (PDT) From: PR Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Message-ID: <899f1c14-d2f2-4ece-8c08-1748188ccf48@m32g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Oct 10, 9:28=A0pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > PR wrote: > > > On Oct 5, 4:53 am, "Richard Maher" > > wrote: > > > Hi Michael, > > > > > Then why do you bother with VMS at all? > > > > 'cos it's the best server on the planet you fucking idiot! > > > > If only the incompetent, self-serving, vms-appologists at HP would op= en the > > > flood-gates and let the users *INTEGRATE* their VMS apps with this > > > feature-rich, cheap, ubiquitous, full-function client platform(s) the= n maybe > > > we might get somewhere? > > > > Regards Richard Maher > > > > "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message > > > >news:gc9spk$1lc$00$1@news.t-online.com... > > > > > Richard Maher schrieb: > > > > > > Personally, I love FireFox and Firebug! I love Flex (and FlexBuil= der)! I > > > > > love .NET (a bit less)! Silverlight is getting better! I love Jav= a > > > Applets! > > > > > (and the new 1.6_10 jnlp deployment options) I love Chrome's Appl= ication > > > > > Launch shortcuts! I love HTML/DOM/Javascript! I love the price of > > > laptops, > > > > > PCs and Macs! I have no problem with Windows! *And so do the user= s!* > > > > > Then why do you bother with VMS at all? > > > Amen brother =A00 thou do preach to the choir! > > > I've said it before and I will say it yet again, from a dead zero > > start, I've put in five VMS installations in a little less than a > > year, including the time to convert the darn software, spec out RX26xx > > servers, install em, and even - get this - > > *get paid!* > > O.k. You've told us THAT you did it. Well Done! Congrats! > > Now, tell us HOW you did it. > The how is simple, I already have software in the field, though it is running on other platforms. One of my clients wanted to upgrade and the platform they were on was just too expensive to stay on and upgrade. So they asked for an alternative, and yes indeed, they suggested Windows. This is where it got really easy - I just put the facts, mostly numbers, down on paper for them. The VMS based solution sold itself based purely on the numbers. This particular customer has 110 terminals scattered around 4 locations, and replacing all those with Windows based machines was a big cost factor. I did replace them by the way, but with a very basic PC running Linux. Total cost for the PC's and the network gear and install was less than the cost of buying Windows and a Windows terminal emulator. Also, no real problem with virii. Just everything came together. (Now, I tore my hair out getting the software converted. And VMS really needs some kind of block mode terminal emulation... in fact I have that about 3/4 of the way done. It makes the server responses seem lightening fast, even over a pretty slow remote link.) And boy are they happy. My software looks and acts just about the same under VMS and it does under z/OS or on an iSeries machine. Sweet. Much lower cost to deploy. And when the owner of that particular company was out golfing one afternoon, his golfing partner was complaining about his software costs. Of course, he turned his partner on to me... and the first new sale happened. It was smaller, about 50 PC's on an existing network. A modified Putty took care of the terminal problems there. Another happy customer. And so it went - 4 more times. And a couple existing customers are wanting to move to the HP solution, as soon as I have time to do it. The how is easy. :) > > If 100 more people would get out there and evangelize VMS, a whole > > hell of a lot of GOOD things would happen. > > It is a GREAT server, and affordable. > > Again, tell us HOW you did/do it. > You talk to people, and you prove to them that VMS is not something mysterious or arcane or unsupported or whatever. Mostly you TALK to them. And there is no need to complain about how something or another seems to have poor support - after all - YOU are going to support it aren't you? Talk to them. Just tell them the truth - VMS is a GREAT OS and we can use it to cost effectively put a solution in place for you. The only catch is you have to believe in the OS and in your software. > Success leaves clues. Find the clues, document the process and make it > REPEATABLE! > It is more engineering than science, and actually, more art than engineering. You just have to believe in what you are trying to sell them. If you don't believe in it, what they heck are you doing selling it in the first place? It isn't ethical to do that to begin with. > > Now if they would just hurry up with 8.4 so I could run the thing in > > an Integrity Virtual Machine, boy would I ever be a happy duck! > > Why not run it on I64 "bare metal" and be even happier? (No PH-UX to > deal with!) > I do of course, but the machine I was thinking of is one of my development machines, and like any small business, I have to squeeze every last nickel, make everything as efficient as possible, and control every single cost. It isn't any fun, but it keeps the business from going bankrupt - or my credit card from maxing out! I use a single Itanium machine to run HP-UX, Linux, and Windows. Running VMS as a VM would be more cost effective and efficient than having to constantly boot into and out of VMS. -Paul > D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:55:35 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Group buy! (50 RX2600s on eBay) Message-ID: Dean Woodward wrote: > On Oct 9, 3:57 pm, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > >> Yeah, and if everyone would stop paying $300 for these things, I >>could probably get one for $200 (or less). (And I'm close enough to >>save the shipping.) I suppose that I'll just keep on using the (much >>appreciated) zx2000. > > > Heh, sorry. I picked up the one that went for $299 today, to go with > the one I got from IDF a few years ago. Report to follow shortly... > Whee! I got one for about $220 and I'm not sorry. It even has a DVD-ROM drive. The shipping made it almost $300, but they did a nice job -- even included hard drive screws. There are a lot of challenges to getting these things working compared to the alphas I've been dealing with as a hobbyist for some years. First of all you have to have the right serial cable(s) and something to connect them to. You can't do a VGA console. You can get to the serial console with a DB9F-to-DB9F null modem cable, but if you want to get to the management processor (which you will want to do), you'll need a DB25M-to-DB9F null modem cable. Then at the other end you'll obviously need either a terminal or another computer with a serial port and a terminal emulator. None of the new computers I've bought in recent years even has a serial port, but luckily I have a number of old computers laying around. Once you get to the EFI console, nothing about it remotely resembles SRM, and no matter how many alphas you've set up you still have to read the docs on the rx2600 and the OpenVMS I64 installation manual to even get started. The one really essential thing you have to do is configure the standard input/output/error devices to only go to one place. Without that you might be able to boot VMS but you won't see the output. Next challenge is obtaining OpenVMS I64 media. There are still no official hobbyist media available and Itanium systems at the office are still under consideration but not here yet.. I managed to burn a DVD from an LD container file built from a backup saveset of an install disc, but it wouldn't boot using the "Boot from Removable Media" menu option. Luckily it did boot using the "Boot from File" option and digging around until I could select the VMS_LOADER.EFI file. Now everything is working fine but the darn thing is so loud I can't bear to have it in the study, but that's the only place I have the network available. As I understand it there was no office-friendly kit for this system. Does anyone have any tips on making it quieter? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:06:14 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Group buy! (50 RX2600s on eBay) Message-ID: Craig A. Berry wrote: > Dean Woodward wrote: >> On Oct 9, 3:57 pm, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: >> >>> Yeah, and if everyone would stop paying $300 for these things, I >>> could probably get one for $200 (or less). (And I'm close enough to >>> save the shipping.) I suppose that I'll just keep on using the (much >>> appreciated) zx2000. >> >> >> Heh, sorry. I picked up the one that went for $299 today, to go with >> the one I got from IDF a few years ago. Report to follow shortly... >> Whee! > > I got one for about $220 and I'm not sorry. It even has a DVD-ROM drive. > The shipping made it almost $300, but they did a nice job -- even > included hard drive screws. There are a lot of challenges to getting > these things working compared to the alphas I've been dealing with as a > hobbyist for some years. > > First of all you have to have the right serial cable(s) and something to > connect them to. You can't do a VGA console. You can get to the serial > console with a DB9F-to-DB9F null modem cable, but if you want to get to > the management processor (which you will want to do), you'll need a > DB25M-to-DB9F null modem cable. Then at the other end you'll obviously > need either a terminal or another computer with a serial port and a > terminal emulator. None of the new computers I've bought in recent years > even has a serial port,... This is plain old RS232, right ? It would surprice me a lot if not anyone of the cheap USB/RS232 converters wouldn't work... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:32:07 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Group buy! (50 RX2600s on eBay) Message-ID: In article , "Craig A. Berry" writes: > Dean Woodward wrote: > > On Oct 9, 3:57 pm, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > > >> Yeah, and if everyone would stop paying $300 for these things, I > >>could probably get one for $200 (or less). (And I'm close enough to > >>save the shipping.) I suppose that I'll just keep on using the (much > >>appreciated) zx2000. > > > > Heh, sorry. I picked up the one that went for $299 today, to go with > > the one I got from IDF a few years ago. Report to follow shortly... > > Whee! Hhmmm...maybe I should think about getting an Itanium for hobbyist use! > I got one for about $220 and I'm not sorry. It even has a DVD-ROM drive. > The shipping made it almost $300, but they did a nice job -- even > included hard drive screws. It seems to me that the prices for low-end Itanium systems have dropped MUCH faster than was the case with ALPHA. What's the reason? Are they missing something essential? > There are a lot of challenges to getting > these things working compared to the alphas I've been dealing with as a > hobbyist for some years. Maybe someone could set up a step-by-step guide on the web. > First of all you have to have the right serial cable(s) and something to > connect them to. You can't do a VGA console. You can get to the serial > console with a DB9F-to-DB9F null modem cable, but if you want to get to > the management processor (which you will want to do), you'll need a > DB25M-to-DB9F null modem cable. Then at the other end you'll obviously > need either a terminal or another computer with a serial port and a > terminal emulator. None of the new computers I've bought in recent years > even has a serial port, but luckily I have a number of old computers > laying around. I have enough old serial cables of all sorts and real terminals lying around. Nice to know that I'll need them when I get an Itanium system! > Next challenge is obtaining OpenVMS I64 media. There are still no > official hobbyist media available But presumably hobbyist LICENSES are available and it's always been OK to borrow media for a hobbyist installation. > Now everything is working fine but the darn thing is so loud I can't > bear to have it in the study, but that's the only place I have the > network available. As I understand it there was no office-friendly kit > for this system. Does anyone have any tips on making it quieter? How big is it? How much power does it use? How loud is it (compared to other VAX or ALPHA systems)? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:49:13 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnPSDS Subject: LS1-11 Graphics Boards Message-ID: We have a government client who wants to clone their MicroVaxII. Slots 7 & 8 have LS1-11 graphics boards made by Ramtek. Anybody know of these boards? Do (4) spares still exist in the world? Inquiring minds want to know. John Hession Account Manager Puget Sound Data Systems 19501 144th Ave, N.E. #D-100 Woodinville, WA 98072 john@PSDS.com tel: 425-488-0710 fax: 425-488-6414 toll-free: 1-866-857-0710 AOL IM: johnPSDS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:26:00 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: LS1-11 Graphics Boards Message-ID: In article , JohnPSDS writes: > We have a government client who wants to clone their MicroVaxII. Why? Why not just pick up a few used MicroVaxes for free? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:16:41 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnPSDS Subject: Re: LS1-11 Graphics Boards Message-ID: On Oct 10, 3:26=A0pm, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article > , > > JohnPSDS writes: > > We have a government client who wants to clone their MicroVaxII. > > Why? =A0Why not just pick up a few used MicroVaxes for free? These boards are necessary to their application and go out to some graphics engine and on to process controllers of some sort. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:35:21 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: LS1-11 Graphics Boards Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article > , > JohnPSDS writes: > >> We have a government client who wants to clone their MicroVaxII. > > Why? Why not just pick up a few used MicroVaxes for free? > Did you miss the keyword "clone"? They don't want just random bits of hardware, they want to configure machines to be identical with what they have. It may be that they need to have exactly the same hardware and firmware versions as they have in existing machines. It's not impossible but I don't think it's easy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:47:28 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Message-ID: <48ef968c$0$3340$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > JFM> convert/reclaim which is generally very fast. > > Both have to read all data buckets. > Reclaim has to read index buckets and alternate indexes as well. While your arguments are compelling to show that /reclaim should be slower, in my experience, a /reclaim seems to be much faster. Perhaps because it has to do far fewer writes ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:04:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Message-ID: > My mistake. =A0It's the PURGE which will take about 15 hours! =A0 > After that I'll do the COMPRESS!- Hide quoted text - Ah... you still have to empty out those 220MB from the 'wastebasket' huh?! I suggest you write a small program, or even just SEARCH/EXACT/ MATCH=3DNOR "WASTEBASKET" to grab all non-wastebasket messages (or whatever you called your wastebasket). AWK, or PERL might be better.. loking just at the rigth place. If you write a program (I might... after I finsih some customer stuff), then you want to MEMCMP match 40 bytes at offset 8 (0 based) with the first byte being the length (11 for "wastebasket") followed by the name for the wastebasked folder, zero filled. Exclude on full match or first all-zero longword Include on first mis-matching longword. Convert the output sequential back to a fresh indexed file. If using a simple search for this, then later verfiy for false positives. fwiw, Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:24:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Message-ID: [ Seem to have lost a reply .. quick retry... ] On Oct 10, 12:59=A0pm, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: : > My mistake. =A0It's the PURGE which will take about 15 hours! =A0 Ah... don't do that! $RENAME MAIL.MAI MAIL.OLD $SEARCH/STAT/MAT=3DNOR/EXACT/OUT=3DMAIL.SEQ mail.mai "WASTEBASKET" $CONVERT/FAST/STAT/NOSORT/FDL.... MAIL.SEQ MAIL.NEW $RENA/LOG MAIL.NEW MAIL.MAI Later, check with SEARH MAIL.OLD WASTEBASKET for false positives. Actually you should use a program (or AWK or PERL) to compare 40 bytes at offset 8 (0 based) and input if that differs from a a 40 buffer with byte-0 being the length of the WASTEBASKET folder name, then the wastebasket folder name itself, zero-filled. Pre-allocate generously OUT-ALQ=3Dinput-ALQ/5? OUT-DEQ=3Dinput-ALQ/20 FAB$V_TEF=3D1, WBH=3D1, MBF=3D4, MBC=3D127 I may write that some day, just not today. Regards, Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:52:13 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Message-ID: <48efb395$0$12383$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > > $RENAME MAIL.MAI MAIL.OLD > $SEARCH/STAT/MAT=NOR/EXACT/OUT=MAIL.SEQ mail.mai "WASTEBASKET" > $CONVERT/FAST/STAT/NOSORT/FDL.... MAIL.SEQ MAIL.NEW > $RENA/LOG MAIL.NEW MAIL.MAI Wouldn't someone normally empty the wastebasket at regular intervals ? Besides, a MAIL> PURGE/RECLAIM won't empty the wastebasket, will it ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:29:37 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Message-ID: In article <48ef910c$0$12358$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > > My mistake. It's the PURGE which will take about 15 hours! After that > > I'll do the COMPRESS! > > CONVERT/RECLAIM (purge) is done implicitely in a rebuild of the file > (COMPRESS). So it is a complete waste of time. First I have to do a PURGE (/NORECLAIM) to actually empty the WASTEBASKET folder; then the convert comes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:39:20 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Message-ID: In article <48efb395$0$12383$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > > > > $RENAME MAIL.MAI MAIL.OLD > > $SEARCH/STAT/MAT=NOR/EXACT/OUT=MAIL.SEQ mail.mai "WASTEBASKET" > > $CONVERT/FAST/STAT/NOSORT/FDL.... MAIL.SEQ MAIL.NEW > > $RENA/LOG MAIL.NEW MAIL.MAI > > Wouldn't someone normally empty the wastebasket at regular intervals ? I normally do. In fact, I normally do so regularly in a batch job. This is a special case of one-time maintenance. > Besides, a MAIL> PURGE/RECLAIM won't empty the wastebasket, will it ? PURGE, by definition, empties the wastebasket. /RECLAIM is an option, not enabled by default, to actually free up the used space. I gather from this thread that many of the defaults for VMS MAIL are not optimal for large files. On the other hand, I started using VMS MAIL in 1992 and in principle still have the main mail file. (My user disk has been migrated several times. As someone said, hardware is ephemeral, software is inertial.) I have a huge number of mail messages in various folders and files (not all in the same directory, but on the same disk) and am happy that VMS MAIL satisfies almost all of my needs. It works in an environment far beyond what it could have been tested with 16 years ago. (Yes, there have been improvements since then, but probably not for several years now and there were some problems introduced by the Bliss-->C rewrite.) The only bug I've seen is that when a message is marked in a folder with more than 9999 messages, one gets five stars in the left columns. (No, I normally don't use folders this big, just for archival purposes in special cases.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:15:32 -0700 (PDT) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: Re: Starting a CDE session over SSH? Message-ID: On Oct 9, 1:54=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > =A0 =A0Do you get any messages or log files that might better point out t= he > =A0 =A0problem? =A0Have you tried using the older decw$session instead of > =A0 =A0CDE? decw$session works, but I'd really like the little control panel applet (or whatever it is called in CDE) to start up. Sampsa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:16:52 -0700 (PDT) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: Re: Starting a CDE session over SSH? Message-ID: <81628c2b-afcc-4217-b9ca-d99425b56d88@q35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 5:16=A0am, Kari Uusim=E4ki wrote: > samp...@gmail.com wrote: > > Is this possible? I've got X forwarding enabled and running individual > > programs works (e.g. CREATE/TERM) but I can't figure out how to start > > a full CDE session, I've tried running DTSESSION.EXE but nothing > > happens aside from some font messages like these ones: > > > X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string "-dt-interface user-medium-r- > > normal-m*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*" to type FontStruct > > X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string "-*-Menu-Medium-R-Normal-- > > *-120-*-*-P-*-ISO8859-1" to type FontStruct > > X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string "-dt-interface user-medium-r- > > normal-m*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*" to type FontStruct > > X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string "-*-Menu-Medium-R-Normal-- > > *-120-*-*-P-*-ISO8859-1" to type FontStruct > > > I've seen similar messages when running say the graphical MAIL client > > so I assume they're not the problem. > > > Sampsa > > Have you configured your X-emulator to make the request to your VMS host? > > Regards, > > Kari Yes, well, sort of :) If I run a nested X server on the local subnet it works, giving me the XDM login prompt etc. But this is not what I want to do, I want to log in and authenticate with SSH and start a CDE session tunneled over SSH for this user. Sampsa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:39:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Sue Subject: VMS Update going out on Wednesday Message-ID: <3753e17b-7345-446e-ba6a-f96c9dc5da11@y29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, If you have anything you would like me to inclule please send it along please send it via email at my HP address. This should by before the end of the work day on Tuesday. Warm Regards, Sue ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.549 ************************